Talk:Scrum (rugby)

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The terms "set scrum" and "loose scrum" died out many years ago. The latter is now either a ruck (ball on the ground) or a maul (ball off the ground). Two new articles are needed.

my fault. I found an article on scrum (management) or something like that and thought it was silly to have the secondary meaning without the primary - but my systematic knowledge of rugby is 40 years out of date, and while I was vaguely aware of changing usage I wasn't aware it had become universal. Do go ahead and do the new articles. seglea 03:08, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Accessibility

I'm not familiar with rugby, and that's obviously my fault, but the article isn't understandable from my perspective. After having read the first couple paragraphs. I still don't know what a scrum is, they compare two different kinds of scrums, but don't say what they have in common, They say it's a way of getting play started again, but they don't specify how. I would have edited the article myself, but I don't actually know. If you would like me to take a read through again, just let me know on my talk page. McKay 18:01, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks McKay 18:10, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Good point, how about adding this definition: "Scrum is a rugby term for the close-knit shoulder-to-shoulder formation a rugby team forms to jointly move the ball forward" (from [1] ) hemmerling 11:41, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

No. that's only true of union not league and in any case makes it sound like a maul.GordyB 13:58, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

What helped me to understand a) "Scrum (rugby), a way to restart the game after an interruption, e.g., after a minor foul" from [2], which is unfortunately NOT repeated in the top of the article, as 1-sentence explanation. b) The photo - so this is like with American Football, when the teams start after a break ? hemmerling 14:32, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

This article begins with the more accurate

In the sports of rugby union and rugby league, a scrummage or scrum is a way of restarting the game, either after an accidental infringement or when the ball has gone out of play (in rugby league only).

It's almost the same except that it is true whereas the disambiguation is so oversimplified that it is not really true.GordyB 14:37, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

The Photo

contains commercial advertising ( "Zurich" Zurich ), in gray, on the grass floor. Good practice for Wikipedia ? hemmerling 06:44, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

The ad on the field is not really a concern... it just happens to be a record of a fact (the game is being played on a field with a sponsor's advertisement.

What is a bigger issue in my mind is that the photo is an utterly poor illustration of a scrum because of the two players who almost completely obstruct the view of the formation. As a person who is not familiar with the rugby, all I can get from this picture is that the opposing players are all leaning in towards each other because all the picture shows clearly is a bunch of legs, and the one player holding the ball in the "no man's land" between the opposing teams. 76.226.66.120 03:28, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

The ideal photo would be a birds eye view (above) the scrum. However finding a free photo from that view is going to be quite difficult. Not many photographers fly over rugby fields! - Shudde ^talk 04:16, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Rugby union scrum

I've been trying to clean up the section on the scrum in rugby union. It's a difficult thing to describe, and I've tried my best to improve it, but still feels like it's a choice between the chicken or egg first! Anyway it's getting bigger, and will prob continue to grow. Should it be split? I think it would prob be a good idea at some point - just a case of whether now is the time. - Shudde ^talk 09:55, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

"In most professional teams the forward pack weighs at least 800 kgs (1764 lbs)."

Do you mean the group of six players made up of forwards from each team? I sure hope so, because if we're talking about the three forwards from one team it would mean that each weighs almost 600lbs. This is, of course, unless I'm completely misunderstanding something... The author might want to clarify this.

Thanks! Greg (theytsejam) 01:07, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Prior to that section the article, in the overview section of the rugby union part of the article it says "To prepare for a scrum each team's eight forwards (referred to as the pack or forward pack)". So thats 800kg for eight forwards. On average over 100kg each. - Shudde ^talk 01:29, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Seeming contradiction

The article lead says "after an accidental infringement or (in rugby league only) when the ball has gone out of play. Scrums occur more often, and are of greater importance, in union than in league." This appears to be contradictory. How can scrums occur more often in union, if league has two as many opportunities, instead of one, for scrums to arise? Also, the claim that scrums are of greater importance in union needs to be sourced, per WP:NOR, since "importance" is a subjective value judgement. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 23:40, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Thats a summary, and once I had finished the union section was going to work on the lead. In Rugby union scrums occur in more then one situation. The two major cases are if there is a "knock-on", or the ball gets trapped in a ruck or maul and is considered unplayable. The reason that a scrum is far more important in Rugby union then league is because in league it's not contested. It's not really NOR because it's a very common fact about the two sports—it wouldn't be considered a controversial statement at all. - Shudde ^talk 00:00, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Union scrums often need to be reset, the ball put back in before they collapse again. It may take several attempts to get a legal scrum. In league the ball goes in and comes out legally virtually every time. This is why there are more scrums in union than league.GordyB 01:30, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Also, as the scrum is pretty much always won by the feeding team, the imperative to boot the ball out of play isn't there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.168.206.51 (talk) 10:24, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Diagram

That diagram depicting the positions of players in a scrum is about fifty years out of date - the 3-2-3 formation shown has not been used for many, many years. It should show four players in the second row with only the No. 8 at the back, in accordance with the modern 3-4-1 formation. Note that the 6 and 7 players may be on either side - they are not normally a "left" and "right" side flanker, but "open" and "blind". The "blind" side is that nearer the touch-line, given that a scrum may take place almost anywhere on the field. Also note that the term "back row" as a collective term for the flankers and No. 8 persists in defiance of logic - the flankers physically occupy the second row but are not considered "second row" forwards. All this is in Union, of course. Captain Pedant 12:28, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

You are wrong about 6 and 7, not all countries follow the numbering convention that you describe and some nations do play left and right flankers.GordyB 15:57, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

what is for sure about the diagram is that IT is in the wrong position! the union scrum is diagrammed in the league section. needs to be moved up.Toyokuni3 (talk) 15:06, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Captain Pedant, would you prefer the term 'looseforwards' to refer to 6,7, & 8? Personally, I'm surprised there's nothing on some of the other scrum formations. Granted 3-4-1 is pretty much universal, but surely it would enrich the article, to describe and depict some of the other scrum formations.. 3-2-3 being one of them. Proberton (talk) 12:19, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 10:13, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

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