Talk:Taps (bugle call)

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Taps (bugle call) article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1

Military history: North America / United States

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles

This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion not met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met

Associated task forces:
/
	North American military history task force
	United States military history task force

Songs

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Songs, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of songs on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SongsWikipedia:WikiProject SongsTemplate:WikiProject Songssong articles

Death Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Death on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

United States: Music / Civil War / Military history Low‑importance

	United States portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	Music portal This article is supported by WikiProject American music (assessed as Low-importance).
	American Civil War portal This article is supported by WikiProject Military history - American Civil War task force.
	This article is supported by WikiProject Military history - U.S. military history task force.

Scouting Low‑importance

	Scouting portal Taps (bugle call) is part of the Scouting WikiProject, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Scouting and Guiding on the Wikipedia. This includes but is not limited to boy and girl organizations, WAGGGS and WOSM organizations as well as those not so affiliated, country and region-specific topics, and anything else related to Scouting. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.ScoutingWikipedia:WikiProject ScoutingTemplate:WikiProject ScoutingScouting articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

On 30 October 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from Taps to Taps (bugle call). The result of the discussion was moved.

Historical Information

The tune that we know as taps was unknown until the Battle of Gettysburg. Until then the Army didn't have a standard bugle call for lights out. The one most often used was an old French call known as a "tattoo". The term "Taps" came from a Dutch term for "taptoe" which was used to signify closing the beer taps at the end of the day and sending the troops back to camp from leave. In July, 1863, tattoo was re-written by the commander of the Union Army at Gettysburg, Maj Gen Daniel Butterfield, because he wanted to have a standardized call for day's end. His men called it "Drum Taps", "The Taps", or simply "Taps". The call was adopted by both the Northern and the Southern Armies for the duration of the war. [Source: Historical archive at the Gettysburg National Battlefield Memorial, Gettysburg, Pennsylvania.]

The Army officially adopted taps in 1874, and it became standard for campfires and funerals in 1891.

Taps didn't have words until many years after it was written. The most official version of lyrics in use today, the first two verses, was published by Horace Lorenzo Trim. There have been several additional verses written by civilians and soldiers throughout the Army for a variety of purposes. John Wayne, Josef Pasternak, John Tidball, and Robert Ellicombe all get credit for writing verses. Ellicombe used it for the funeral of his son, said to be a confederate soldier.MR2David (talk) 07:35, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Lyrics

I think that the Lyrics section is getting unwieldy. A new set attributed to Anne McAffrey has just been added. I am not an expert on Taps but I feel that what is probably required is just ONE set of lyrics that are regarded as the most commonly-used, and with a good reference for this. All the others could be removed and replaced with a note that variants exist. Certainly, if we go the other way and add every set across which we stumble, the article is not going to improve. But that's just my inexpert opinion - what do you think? Best wishes to all, DBaK (talk) 09:29, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I just rather dramatically trimmed it back to all except the first. I don't really think it needs trimming THAT drastically but I really would appreciate some discussion here followed by others editing it to what they think is correct, and/or commenting on my point above. Thanks and best wishes DBaK (talk) 10:30, 27 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

PS Sources - is it Jari Villanueva wrote that lovely book about it (or if not, who)? Might it help? I think I have a copy. Anyone else, any other source?? DBaK (talk) 13:17, 27 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The "lyrics" should fall under the Legends area until we can find sources. Bugle calls usually don't have official lyrics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:C4F1:5420:B593:8A02:4E49:C9AE (talk) 00:17, 4 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Texas A&M paragraphs seem confusing

The two paragraphs about the Texas A&M tradition(s) confuse me. Are there 2 traditions--Silver Taps and Echo Taps? I think there's overlap in the two paragraphs. I hesitate to change because I'm unfamiliar with the traditions. Also, the meaning of "Aggies" isn't explained. Kekki1978 (talk) 08:14, 7 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 30 October 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. The bugle call's primary topic status, whether by usage or dominance in long-term significance, seems to be unable to be secured. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 02:09, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Taps → Taps (bugle call) – WP:ASTONISH, no primary topic per WP:PLURALPT, the bugle call has 6,688 views but the 1981 film has more, 7,126, the valve has 3,039, the buffer has 165, Taps Mugadza has 62 and the 2006 film has 35[[1]]. Redirect back to Tap per WP:DABCOMBINE. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:48, 30 October 2022 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink). – robertsky (talk) 23:17, 30 October 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 17:02, 7 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Crouch, Swale got to contest on this one. Taps is a pretty famous tune itself, being used not only in the United States, but also other militaries (even if it is not stated in the article, but here you go as an example, [2], page 70). – robertsky (talk) 22:58, 30 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Robertsky: Yes it probably has long-term significance but probably not over the thing that gives out water and not by usage over the film but you're probably right it may need discussing. Crouch, Swale (talk) 23:12, 30 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Singapore army seems to have got itself somewhat confused here, since it appears that they actually, as would be expected from a Commonwealth country, use the Last Post instead of Taps! -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:08, 9 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 23:57, 30 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:02, 31 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Songs has been notified of this discussion. – robertsky (talk) 13:12, 31 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject United States has been notified of this discussion. – robertsky (talk) 13:12, 31 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Death has been notified of this discussion. – robertsky (talk) 13:12, 31 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Scouting has been notified of this discussion. – robertsky (talk) 13:13, 31 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per contest above. Taps as a military song has a long-term significance, and would be ingrained in many worldwide even if they are not of the military as it is a common tune played at military funerals and other events (military and non-military alike). – robertsky (talk) 13:17, 31 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Even with the long-term significance of the thing we get water out of. All Google results apart from the 4th last (1981 film) and last (song WP article) are for the thing we get water out of, Images only returns the water meaning and Books doesn't appear to return anything for the song and appears to mainly be for the water meaning. By usage the 1981 song gets more views, yes more! and the thing we get water out of is an everyday thing that even people interested in the song will use which surely has more long-term significance. Also 1981 is over 40 years ago so its not like the film is very recent either which also may question long-term significance. Crouch, Swale (talk) 08:45, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As Crouch Swale shows, this oppose is not correct. "taps" means taps. No evidence from Gbooks that the bugle call is well known, let alone primary topic. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:27, 8 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per WP:SMALLDETAILS and WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. The bugle call is the primary topic for "Taps". Rreagan007 (talk) 00:37, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Rreagan007: en.wp cannot distinguish taps from Taps. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:27, 8 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose The tune has the most long-term notability over a movie (probably referencing tune), a singer who uses last name, and TAPS, which is not Taps. --Quiz shows 16:01, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose - with a lot of respect to the proposer, WP:ASTONISH is not a criterion at WP:AT and generally just exposes WP:BUTIDONTKNOWABOUTIT. Taps is a tremendously significant song. PLURALPT explicitly allows us to have a separate primary topic for "taps" versus "tap" (I would know; I wrote it.) Pageviews are great but the bugle call lays claim to educational significance. Red Slash 17:37, 2 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
WP:PRECISE says "Usually, titles should unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, but should be no more precise than that." The exception being primary topics which this clearly fails, it fails the views criteria and while I agree it has significant long-term significance the thing we get water out of has far far more long-term significance than even the song. Taps that we get water out of are hugely important to us and have been around for far longer than the 19th century. Everyone knows what taps are while only some will know what the song is, BUTIDONTKNOWABOUTIT gives the examples of Birmingham, Perth and Raleigh where readers who have certain biases may think of another meaning but globally there is still a primary topic. Even if we drastically discount the water meaning due to readers and editors expecting the singular it is surely such a significant topic that it would still prevent the song from being primary in addition to the usage of the 1981 film. So respectfully I don't think there is enough of a case for primacy here especially when usage shows a different topic (the 1981 film) is if anything primary and long-term significance also suggests a different topic (the water meaning) its safest to disambiguate. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:15, 6 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Taps is a tremendously significant song. Indeed it is, but is it really more significant than the things turned on many times a day by several billion people all over the world to provide water for drinking or washing? This is indeed a case of WP:ASTONISH, whether you have intimate knowledge of US military procedures or not. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:12, 9 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisting comment: A battle on whether the opposers' long-term significance arguments are valid continues to rage on. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 17:02, 7 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom. Shwcz (talk) 03:40, 8 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Clearly not the primary topic, especially over the rather common things that liquid comes out of (and are very often in pairs, hence the plural)! -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:02, 9 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There are a number of other uses which may be called "Tap(s)" at least sometimes, see views[[3]] but even if we only look at the water meaning, 1981 film its clear there isn't a primary topic. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:09, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

swinging in the wind

why is the info about Butterfield so far away from the original reference to him? For somebody who jumps down to origins, it's like who is this and how did he get this job? 100.15.117.34 (talk) 00:14, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Civilian use

I attended YMCA Camp Loowit at the foot of Mt. St. Helens in the 1970s. (The camp isn't there anymore, nor is most of the mountain.) We used to sing the first verse of Taps quietly at the end of campfire each night, and then half an hour later, when the whole camp was in bed, two buglers played it to signal lights out. They stood at opposite ends of the large property and staggered their entry, so that from your cabin you either heard the call begin far-off then recommence louder, or it began near you and you heard a far-off echo of the last three notes after it ended. I always suspected that the echo versions in the military were a callback to the same experience soldiers had in large army camps, though this isn't confirmed in our entry here. Laodah 02:38, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]