Talk:Extreme points of the United Kingdom

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A fact from Extreme points of the United Kingdom appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 27 July 2004. The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the extreme points of the United Kingdom include Out Stack as the northernmost, Rockall as the westernmost, The Lizard as the southernmost and Lowestoft Ness as the easternmost?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2004/July.

Wikipedia

Northern Ireland

Why no Northern Ireland? -Rwv37 19:49, Jul 25, 2004 (UTC)

Good question. I have attempted to rectify. Trilobite 00:33, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Erm, why the Republic of Ireland, even if "under British Isles"? Co. Kerry wasn't in the UK last time I looked, but I'm sure some Brits would be kind enough to oblige that way!!! --MacRusgail 20:57, 29 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The British Isles doesn't just include the UK! It also includes the Republic of Ireland (and the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands). It is not a political designation either, that is just the name of the archipelago whether you like it or not and I'm sure you must know this! YourPTR! 01:30, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The point MacRusgail is making, which I have also made below, is that this articles is about the "Extreme points of the United Kingdom." I'll make the relevant changes. --sony-youth^pléigh 06:39, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As the introduction states, this is some useful extra information. Most of the extreme points of the British Isles are the same as those of the UK, and the section clarifies where the differences lie. It in no way implies that the Republic of Ireland is part of the UK; if it is giving that appearance, please add some text to clarify this. Warofdreams talk 13:08, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In that case, I'd move the article to Extreme points of the British Isles and include the extreme points of the UK as a part of that, otherwise the impression will persist (especially since the British Isles is mentioned second after the UK and before the constituent countries of the UK, strange for "some useful extra information.") Would you be happy with a move? --sony-youth^pléigh 13:38, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose that would be a possibility; we could merge in the extreme points of Ireland article, but I felt that it might be more useful to keep the details separate, and I wouldn't like to see an article on the British Isles dominated by details on the UK, so in that case it wouldn't be appropriate to move this article. Would moving the British Isles info to the bottom of the article, reducing its prominence, be useful? Warofdreams talk 13:48, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Could do the merge, but seems more hassle than its worth. The issue is simply one of bewilderment - why are the extreme points of the British Isles "useful extra information" for the extreme points of the UK? Half of those points are not even in the UK - you might as well include "some useful extra information" for the most southerly point of France, with the most easterly tip of Japan thrown in for good measure! The British Islands at least constitute an area where the UK parliament can (in theory and on rare occasions) legistlate, but conflating the UK with the whole of the British Isles makes about as much sense as including the same "useful extra information" in the "Extreme points of Ireland" article - its nonsensical. --sony-youth^pléigh 14:09, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

<reduce indent> This article is named as being about the political entity, the United Kingdom. Including places outside the United Kingdom as being "extreme points" thereof is contradictory and confusing, not "helpful extra information". 83.39.134.72 16:21, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. The most relevant parallel is with our extreme points of Russia. As they are similar to the extreme points of the Soviet Union, rather than having an additional article repeating almost all of the information, we mention the helpful additional information in that article. The British Isles are a widely recognised entity, which at one historical period were almost conterminous with the UK, but no longer are. Parallels with the most southerly point of France or the easterly tip of Japan are way off the mark. If the article is insufficiently clear that the British Isles are different to the UK, please add some text so that nobody could possibly misunderstand. But why should we remove useful information? Warofdreams talk 18:33, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"at one historical period were almost coterminous" i.e. were never actually coterminous and are not at all coterminous now. If you suggest that a basis like "at one historical period were almost coterminous" is sufficient then Kaliningrad should probably be listed as the Easternmost major German city (it´s not). After all, it´s in historical Prussia, which "at one historical period was almost coterminous" with Germany. The point is that the information is confusing, not helpful. There are whole articles dedicated to trying to straighten out terminology related to the UK and Ireland and here we have an article that just confuses everything again. If this article is about the UK, make it about the UK. Point people to articles about the British Isles. There are plenty. 83.39.134.72 21:28, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Lots of things were useful approximations at one time and are no longer true. If you think that a list of the extreme points of Prussia would be notable and could be sourced, then by all means create one. It might be appropriate to list it in the extreme points of Germany article (but probably not, as it is solely a historical region with no currency). If you find this article confusing, write some text so that there is no possibility of confusion. There is no need to remove useful information from this article. Warofdreams talk 01:10, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

<reduce indent>I have not removed useful information from this article. I have improved this article by de-confusing it and by organising it a little. 83.39.134.72 07:36, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Warofdreams, you mean the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland?? You're talking about a century ago! And even then that state was not contigious with the British Isles. Inclusion of the British Isles is simply bewildering, and still I'm asking how is its inclusion "some useful extra information"? "Useful extra information", I believe, would be the British Islands (for the reasons stated above). I'll leave that to you to decide whether it should be included or not. For now, I've moved the British Isles information to a seperate page and linked to it from the "See also." If a reader wants that information its there and its clear where to find it (as opposed to when it was included under the UK!!). --sony-youth^pléigh 07:57, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I really cannot understand your point of view, but as your compromise preserves the information, it seems a reasonable compromise. Warofdreams talk 04:17, 24 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rockall

As far as I am aware, Rockall is contested by Ireland and Iceland as well as the UK. I'm not sure it counts as part of the UK (by anyone elses standards).

Zoney 23:38, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, this should be made clearer. As it is actually disputed (in the real world), including it here without making that perfectly clear is a break of NPOV. --sony-youth^pléigh 09:29, 26 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

AFAIK, the rock of Rockall itself is not disputed. There is dispute about the continental shelf nearby, but no-one other than the UK formally claims the rock itself. 83.39.134.72 16:23, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

According to our article, that is true, but several other nations have claims to the continental shelf and would include Rockall in that (as a rock incapable of supporting permanent human habitation). There seems to me to be a strong argument for reversing the current position and instead listing Rockall in the footnotes, and the internationally accepted points in the main text. Warofdreams talk 01:12, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Southern Ireland now recognizes British sovereignty over the islet, check the page on Rockall and see for yourself and no other country actually claims the rock itself just the surrounding seabed. Rockall is British! YourPTR! (talk) 19:27, 29 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Lizard / Scilly Isles

How can the Southernmost point of the United Kingdom and the Southernmost point of England be in different places? As far as I know the Scillies are still part of the U.K.

Donald Renouf 04.09, 26th July 2004 (British Summer Time)

Southernmost point of the UK and of England is in the Scillies — they are further south than the Lizard. Southernmost point of mainland England however is the Lizard. Trilobite 23:57, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

How can the southernmost point of Great Britain be different to the southernmost point of England? How can they differ? If the Scilly Isles is part of England, and England is part of Great Britain, then the southernmost point of England and Great Britain will be the same.

Joolz 14:32, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

England is a country which includes much of Great Britain and some small surrounding islands. Great Britain is an island. Warofdreams 14:36, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'm aware of those facts thanks, (I can only assume you're being purposely patronising because I clearly said "England is part of Great Britain" not "England is Great Britain"). I obviously didn't express myself clearly enough. England occupies the southern portion of Great Britain, The Scilly Isles are part of England. The Scilly Isles are also part of Great Britain. Therefore it would make sense that the Scilly Isles were listed as being the most extreme southernmost point in Great Britain as well as England. Basically, what I'm saying is the southernmost point of Great Britain is not Lizard Point but the Scilly Isles. -- Joolz 18:52, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps you didn't read it carefully. England is a country which includes much of Great Britain and some small surrounding islands. Our article on Great Britain explains that its main, geographical definition is as an island. Warofdreams 10:22, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Easternmost point in Wales

I have corrected this once but I'm not fully confident in my correction. The border at the far eastern edge of Monmouthshire is a north-south line with many small twists and turns in it - if anyone has any definitive information on which bit extends furthest into England please go ahead and update. I am not making any great claims for Bulwark. Trilobite 00:58, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I have had a look on the maps and co-ordinates given via Streetmap's website, and I think I have found a better candidate.

The easternmost point of land on the riverbank near Bulwark, which you suggested, appears to be here: http://www.streetmap.co.uk/streetmap.dll?G2M?X=354545&Y=191695&A=Y&Z=3 which shows as 02d 39m 29s west. (grid ref ST545916)

However, further upriver not far from Symonds Yat there is a small wiggle of border further east: http://www.streetmap.co.uk/streetmap.dll?G2M?X=355290&Y=214165&A=Y&Z=3 (grid ref SO553142) which shows up as 02:39:00W or maybe even 02:38:59W, i.e. half a minute of longitude further east :)

On the 1:25,000 map this area seems to be called Lady Park Wood so I have updated the main article. 143.252.80.124 12:51, 6 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'm confused. The easternmost point of Wales is Lady park Wood, but the easternmost point of the Welsh mainland is Bulwark? Something not right there... Grutness...wha? 05:00, 24 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

My mistake - I forgot to change the mainland section when I changed the Wales part. Fixed now.

Sorry for adding this in the wrong section, but the most westerly part of Wales is NOT Grassholm Island, it is 'The Smalls' also known as 'Smalls Reef' - it is 9 miles further out than Grassholm Island. This mistake should be corrected. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.13.124.52 (talk) 11:04, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Westernmost point in Wales

Small Isle is much further west than Grassholm - this needs correcting

Southernmost point in Wales

While I've got the Welsh maps out, it seems to me that Rhoose Point is marginally further south than the nearby Breaksea Point. Streetmap agrees, giving 51:22:51N for Rhoose Point, 51:22:52N for Breaksea Point. Also found a couple of websites that back it up, e.g. http://www.glamorganwalks.com/porthkerry.htm and http://www.britishwalks.org/walks/2003/373.php ("Rhoose Point is the southernmost point in mainland Wales, a fact that a sign proudly told me.")

Anyone have any reasons not to change it? 143.252.80.124 13:10, 6 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No one did, so I have made the change. 143.252.80.124 13:34, 25 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

British Isles

UK and British Isles are obviously quite different things and I think it is quite wrong and misleading to confuse the two. I would propose changing the "British Isles" section to "British Islands" (the only change this would have would be to the "Westernmost Settlement" would be Manger Beg, County Fermanagh). --sony-youth^pléigh 09:27, 26 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree somewhat. If this article is about the UK, let it be about the UK. If it´s about "British Islands", let it be about that. Extreme points lists should be clear and entirely unambiguous in order to be helpful. Blurring and confusing an extreme points list is hardly sensible. 83.39.134.72 21:33, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps there should be seperate articles for the UK and the British Isles then? British Islands is the UK + the Channel Islands & the Isle of Man, British Isles is the British Islands plus Southern Ireland (ROI). Just to clear up any confusion between the terms. :) YourPTR! 01:10, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sony has created a page with a list of extreme points of the British Isles. The whole point of his (and my) comments here was to clear up confusion. 83.39.134.72 07:45, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Shetland is part of the UK. Its northernmost extreme point (Out Stack) is therefore the northernmost point of the UK and Great Britain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.160.156.107 (talk) 20:44, 27 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Northern Ireland...

may be "constituent", but both nationalists and unionists agree that it is not a country. --MacRusgail (talk) 15:34, 25 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So what? Wales isn't a country either it's a principality of England and "Northern Ireland" is a province. The only real countries in the British Isles are England, Ireland and Scotland. YourPTR! (talk) 19:20, 29 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Overseas Territories

Can we also include the extreme points when the Overseas Territories are taken into account just like the Extreme points of the United States page does with the USA's overseas territories? The USA's equivalent page includes American Samoa for most southerly point of the USA when it is NOT in the USA. YourPTR! (talk) 19:18, 29 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Scotland

I haven't tried all the available links from Geohack, but for those I have the given lat/long figures all seem to go to a point in the sea some way south of Corrachadh Mòr. I lack the l33t Ninja skillz to work out what the figures should be (and if you type "Corrachadh Mòr" into Google Maps it takes you to Ardnamurchan Lighthouse). Anyone? Mr Larrington (talk) 15:28, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Westernmost inhabited, England. URGENT!

The Scilly isle of Bryher is marginally further west than Saint Agnes, although I don't know where exactly the westernmost house of each isle is. It might have to come down to that to sort it out. 86.154.118.65 (talk) 20:40, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed - it's marginal, but the Hell Bay Hotel (Bryher) is very very slightly further west than Troy Town Farm (St Agnes). I have amended the article accordingly. Sumorsǣte (talk) 00:06, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I like the fact that this was "URGENT" but was not replied to for almost four years... — Amakuru (talk) 14:19, 30 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Can someone identify and add Eastnermost point of British Overseas territories, given

Given that United Kingdom administration of the Chagos Islands is generally regarded as unlawful (e.g. by UN - see their map [1]), can an alternate easternmost point be added the same way an alternate to Antarctica is included for southernmost point is? I do not know what the easternmost point is when the Chagos Islands are excluded. Thanks. Frenchmalawi (talk) 15:00, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The second Easternmost point is in Akrotiri and Dhekelia, a military base in Cyprus. It has been added as an alternate to Chagos Islands. OrewaTel (talk) 03:24, 4 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sources?

While the article seems accurate from what I know, there isn't a single reference on the page. Shouldn't there be? Twasonasummersmorn (talk) 01:04, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Basically the online sources seem to be various maps. Does examining a map constitute original research? Most of the points are not contentious. The extreme points of mainland England, for example, are obvious from looking at a school atlas. However other places are not so clear cut. Is Point of Ayr further north than Great Orme Head in Wales? That is very close. We really need to have an independent definitive sources. So yes, references should be provided. OrewaTel (talk) 20:27, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: Point of Ayr is 1,550 metres (1,700 yd) North of Great Orme. Since it is 60.7 kilometres (37.7 mi) away to the East, it's not obvious without careful measurement. Whilst that sort of research is useful and verifiable, it isn't the sort of thing that we should be doing.OrewaTel (talk) 20:53, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Lowest point

Agree re the need for sources. There are sources available for Holme Fen being the lowest elevation but a problem has arisen recently in that a disused brick pit at King's Dyke, Peterborough is now shown on Ordnance Survey maps as having a minus 5m contour, the only one in the UK to the best of my knowledge, and hence lower. I cannot find any other info on this. cheers Geopersona (talk) 09:23, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That raises a philosophical point. When does an artificial structure become natural? It is possible that there is an active quarry or open cast mine which is lower than 5 below. It is certainly true that there are mines that are lower still. We would not include these as a lowest point. Similarly the highest point of England is the summit of Scafell Pike. The mountain is 3210' high (maybe) but the substantial cairn on top is at least 2m higher. That cairn, by the way, is drum shaped and is at least 6 metres across but is not counted as part of the fabric of the mountain. So when does a disused brick pit become the lowest point in England? OrewaTel (talk) 22:00, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]