Talk:Lagerstätte

Pronunciation guide

I think this article would benefit from a pronunciation guide. Mel 97.124.136.230 (talk) 04:53, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

The German word literally translates as "resting places." - According to my Paleobiology Text book (by Derek Briggs) Lagerstätten means is dervived from mining traddition and means any rock or sedimentary body containing constituents of economic interest. The correct word is fossil-Lagerstätten, that is fossil bearing rocks worthy of exploitation. Which of the two is correct? Any German speakers out there? Sabine's Sunbird 11:25, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

In a paleontological context, the "fossil-" is now understood; Paleobiology II came out in a new edition in 2003. The "worthy of exploitation" aspect is less relevant, outside the extractive industries, where the word was originally coined. "Lagerstätten" appears even in article titles nowadays, I notice. Even if it were less correct, the more common usage always makes the better heading for a Wikipedia article, don't you think? --Wetman

• Sorry, I was unclear. What I meant was that the origin of the word laggerstatten was from fossil-lagerstatten, as in "fossil bearing rocks worthy of exploitation", rather than lagerstatten from the word 'resting place'. Thus the wording of the article should reflect this (I wasn't suggesting changiing the title), assuming that that is the correct origin of the word Sabine's Sunbird 15:59, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

"Konzentrat-Lagerstätten (or concentration Lagerstätten) signifies deposits with a particular concentration of disarticulated organic hard parts, such as a bone bed" — adding "or an oyster bed" shows a misunderstanding of the geology or of the German. Shelly parts of an oyster bed that have been concentrated in an accumulation away from their living site (through tidal forces etc.) are the only possible example I can think of for this addition. Oyster beds preserved in situ are not Konzentrat-Lagerstätten. I have not removed this confusing addition, following the general principle Avoid unnecessary interference. --Wetman 14:59, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I added it as a further example of accumilation deposits, I guess it could be confusing for the reasons you gave. Maybe an ammonite coquina would be a better example? Sabine's Sunbird 15:59, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Hi, folks! I am the german native speaker you where asking for. First: the german word Lagerstätte does not derive from resting place. A resting place, in the sense of a camp or a grave, would simply be Lager, or Grab respectively. Lagerstätte rather stems from Lage, in the sense of "layer", and is solely used in conection with Mineral Deposits, not with fossil-Lagerstätten (as in english), nor with archeological sites (as in spanish). The article es:yacimiento in the spanish Wikipedia, to wich this article is linked, is actually a Definition-choise page (or what ever you call it), that does list all three meanings. Second: the german term for a paleontological, or archeological site is: Fundstätte (= findingplace). Unfortunatately this english page is now linked to the german page de:Lagerstätte, which itself is linked to the english page deposit. So, every now and then appears some mindless bot, and changes the link back to this (incorrect) page (mumbling Hasta la vista, baby in the process). Would you please be so kind, to delete your current german link and change it to the article de:Fundstätte? Yours sincerely.

Ups! The article "Fundstätte" does not exist yet. So, just please delete the link to "Lagerstätte". User:Geoz.

I read - I think in Palæobiology II - a synthesis - that it meant 'Mother Lode'. Is this a literal translation, or an anglicisation? Verisimilus T 17:57, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

There actually is the german word Lagerstatt meaning resting place, it is just not commonly used anymore. The word Lagerstätte with the meaning of resting place exists as well in german language, it is not an everyday word anymore either but still can be found in literature (poetry and alike). Both Lagerstatt and Lagerstätte have the same plural Lagerstätten. -- 87.78.198.78 (talk) 01:45, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Does Big Bone Lick, Kentucky, qualify?

Big Bone Lick State Park preserves the site of a deposit of Pleistocene megafauna fossils. I recall reading somewhere (sorry, I can't find the reference) that it ranks second as such in North America, after Rancho La Brea, California. Does it rate a mention in a list of Lagerstätten, or categorization as such? Teratornis 16:45, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

No, this perennial schoolboy favorite, though a site where fossils have been retrieved, is not a lagerstätte. --Wetman 23:55, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

OK, why not? Insufficient number of fossils? Insufficient diversity? The fact that many or possibly most of the fossils originally in the site are now in museums around the world? Why doesn't Lagerstätte explain the arbitrary distinction to the schoolboys who constitute a large percentage of Wikipedia readers? (Incidentally, I feel cheated to have passed through childhood during the before time, as in before Wikipedia.) Perhaps some schoolboys would not understand why Big Bone fails the definition of [1]: La Brea is an example of a concentration Lagerstätten, because it is noted for its large quantity of fossils. The tar pits formed concentration traps in which organisms became trapped and died. Other examples of concentration Lagerstätten include fissure fills, cave deposits and bone beds. As Wikipedia is to be written for the nonexpert, the distinction bears explaining. Perhaps a section could be added: "Fossil deposits that don't make the cut, and why" or something to that effect. Along with an audio file of derisive laughter from Eric Cartman, to drive the point home. --Teratornis 19:43, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I merely meant "schoolboy favorite" as in that perennial schoolboy favorite pope, Pope Hilarius: with their contracted cultural horizons, today's schoolboys doubtless have other favorites, closer to home. Or jokes are harsher and more violent. At any rate, not every bone bed with dramatic megafauna is a lagerstätte: La Brea also trapped pollen. That should be made clearer in the article: a lagerstätte offers a snapshot, frozen in time, of a paleoecology. --Wetman 13:51, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, Seilacher himself uses the term pretty inclusively; neither exceptional preservation nor a lack of time averaging is needed to qualify as a Lagerstätte. See my comments below. -- DE 72.48.177.50 (talk) 17:59, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Naracoorte Caves National Park

Does this also qualify, it is quite famous for the fossils it contains. Enlil Ninlil 06:14, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I think. If La Brea Tar Pits form a lagerstätte, don't these less familiar caves, too? Let's wait to hear what others think. --Wetman 23:55, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, I don't think anyone would argue with you if you called it a konsentrat-lagerstatten. I don't think it's quite a case of "qualifying"! Verisimilus T 13:54, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Ghost Ranch

Ghost Ranch, though it is linked, does not have an article on its palaeo. It should have. Macdonald-ross (talk) 12:23, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

ditto Karatau. All names not linked to a palaeo article should be red-linked by name-change, eg. "Ghost Ranch formation". Macdonald-ross (talk) 12:55, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

It's the Chinle Formation, not the "ghost ranch formation", and I'm not sure it would even qualify. Also, I'm assuming what you call "Karatau" is the Karabastau Formation, which is actually Jurassic, not Triassic. Dgrootmyers (talk) 00:32, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Addition request - Mangrullo Formation

Transferred from inappropriately placed request from the main article space. I'll see if I can add it myself-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 18:15, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Please, add the recently described Early Permian Mangrullo, mesosaur bearing, Konservat Lagerstätte from Uruguay to the list of important Lagerstätten. This is the oldest and only known Paleozoic Lagerstätte from South America, and preserves extraordinary well preserved mesosaur reptiles and pygocephalomorph crustaceans, including the oldest known amniote embryos and putative eggs, and phosphatized delicate structures as blood vessels and nerves. Source: Piñeiro, G.; Ramos, A.; Goso, C.; Scarabino, F. & Laurin, M. 2012. Unusual environmental conditions produced a Konservat Lagerstätte from Uruguay. Acta Palaeontologica Polonica, 57 (2): 299–318.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Graciela Piñeiro (talk • contribs) 14:54, 17 October 2012‎ (UTC)

 Done I'll try to create an article on the formation itself based on your paper as well. Feel free to correct it if I make any errors. Cheers. -- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 18:36, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

The List is Badly Named!

In one of the earliest English papers I could find on the subject, Dolf Seilacher puts forward a very, very broad definition of a fossil-Lagerstätten.

"Corresponding to economic Lagerstätten of minerals and ores, fossil Lagerstätten were defined as rock bodies unusually rich in palaeontological information, either in a quantitative or qualitative sense. This means that the term embraces not only strata with an unusual preservation, but also less spectacular deposits such as shell beds, bone beds and crinoidal limestones. The concept also implies that there is no sharp boundary with 'normal' fossiliferous rocks."

Exceptional preservation is explicitly called unnecessary, and time-averaging is not mentioned. Please note that this is Dr. Seilacher's own definition for a fossil Lagerstätten, and since he originated the term, there isn't much wiggle room here. When he refers to these less spectacular deposits he is referring to konzentrat-Lagerstätten and not konservat, but Lagerstätten nonetheless. Things like oyster beds or vertebrate bonebeds are Lagerstätten regardless of the quality of preservation or the duration of deposition. The list as it stands seems to be mostly of koservat-Lagerstätten, with an uneven sprinkling of the most notable konzentrat-Lagerstätten. It is not nearly as exhaustive as it ought to be given the title. Even so, I realize that a truly exhaustive list of notable Lagerstätten would be daunting, since most invertebrate and a large percentage of vertebrate sites would qualify, but there we are. The list should either be renamed "Important konservat-Lagerstätten," or made a great deal more inclusive. If the latter option is selected, places like Big Bone Lick, Como Bluff / Morrison Formation, and the entire Cincinnatian sequence should absolutely be included. --DE 72.48.177.50 (talk) 17:58, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

I edited the title to reflect the true nature of the list. 72.48.177.50 (talk) 18:51, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

That was Dolf's proposal. But the usage within the field has tended towards reserving the term for sites with unusual or spectacularly good preservation. Certainly that was the aspect being stressed when I was a palaeontology student, in the mid-80s. And using a textbook written by one of that list of authors. Since then, the konzentrat-Lagerstätten have tended to retain the descriptions "bone beds", crinoidal limestones, etc. AKarley (talk) 13:36, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Geiseltal

The mid-Eocene Geiseltal formation, ~45 mya, is sufficiently important to be given an article and to be included here, yes? -Wetman (talk) 20:24, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Emerging possibly very important Lagerstätte

I just read an article about an emerging new Lagerstätte in the Hell Creek area USA. Here is the Link; https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/04/08/the-day-the-dinosaurs-died . If this pans out it could be the most important fossil site ever discovered. The Geologist is young & controversial. It appears to have been laid down within hours of the K-Pg Extinction Event. Professor Alvarez has visited the site which is being kept secret. If it passes scrutiny it will be direct evidence of the Event including victims, Tektites, chaotic deposits etc. It should at least be briefly mentioned as a possible new Lagerstätte in the encyclopedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tvsterling (talk • contribs) 15:48, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

That sounds like the so-called "Tanis" deposit (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanis_(fossil_site)) which has since been published. While preservation is good, I'm not so sure that it was spectacularly or unusually good (as required for the classification of "Lagerstätte".) AKarley (talk) 13:27, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Indeed, this seems to be a reference to the highly controversial (methodology and results have been questioned) Tanis site, which is already in the Cretaceous list. I would support removing it from the list for now, as its controversial nature is still being addressed by the wider paleontological community, and that I am aware, no reliable sources currently have ACTUALLY deemed it a lagersttäte.--Kevmin § 23:02, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

I agree that Tanis is currently disputed and should be removed from the list until reliable secondary sources provide evidence that there is consensus that Tanis is a lagerstätte (or not). The only source in scientific journals that I have found referring to Tanis as a lagerstätte is the primary source by de Palma et al. GeoWriter (talk) 00:00, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Anglophonic bias tag

@Lappspira:, you placed the Anglophonic tag on the article, please elaborate on specifically what you feel is biased in the current presentation.--Kevmin § 23:04, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Its the geographical selection of formations and localities that is biased towards Anglo-Saxon countries (and Europe). Can the list be representative if no Lagerstätte in Africa beyond South Africa is mentioned? Also, only one is mentioned in Russia while a total of ten are mentioned for Australia, a much smaller country. Lappspira (talk) 07:53, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

@Lappspira: Which Older then Pliocene sites, described in the literature as Lagerstätte, do you feel are missing from Africa, and which younger then Paleozoic sites, described as Lagerstätte, are missing from Russia? And why have you not simply added them, rather then tagging the article with no explaination?--Kevmin § 14:25, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

I am by no means a Lagerstätte expert, but its quite clear that the geographical distribution of the examples in the article is not even. The case that Russia or the whole of Africa has as many known Lagerstättes as England or Scotland is highly suspicious. Lappspira (talk) 07:24, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

@Lappspira:The lack of well-worked fossil sites in certain parts of the world is a pervasive institutional bias that reflects the dominance of Europe, China, and the Americas in paleontology research. It is quite probable that Lagerstätten exist in Russia, Africa, and even Antarctica, but these have not been found or excavated because of insufficient local knowledge of such sites, distance from the sites to well-funded research institutions, difficulty in housing expeditionary teams, local political issues, or any combination of these factors. While I agree that this is a bias, I don't think it's one that Wikipedia is equipped to address. There may very well be abundant Lagerstätten in places like South Sudan, Yemen, or the Democratic Republic of the Congo that have yet to be discovered due to the unstable political situation in those countries. This would in turn bias our knowledge of the fossil record, but independent research would be necessary to determine if that is indeed the case. There is also the possibility that the density of Lagerstätten in places like Russia are reflective of improper preservation conditions in the region. For example, a large part of Russia's bedrock in formed by igneous flood basalts, which do not preserve fossils. It may also be possible that permafrost has destroyed or obscured our ability to find such sites. We simply don't know yet if this is reflective of a systemic institutional bias or a true preservation bias.

This issue must be resolved by the researchers themselves and therefore, in my opinion, does not warrant the Anglophonic bias tag because it is not possible to resolve within the scope of Wikipedia's guidelines until further research is done.--A Cynical Idealist (talk) 07:52, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

@A Cynical Idealist:, acknowledgment of this bias is to be expected to be found in some taphonomy text. When such reliable source is found I think it merits an inclusion on top of the article to warn the reader of bias. That would in my opinion be the best approach to this problem. Lappspira (talk) 18:50, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

@Lappspira I agree 100%. I'll see if I can find something in the literature. I do know a few researchers who have spoken about this in a non-academic context, but I'll have to see if any of these views are reflected in their published research. A Cynical Idealist (talk) 21:50, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Improving relevance of thumbnails

In the various tables, many of the related images are simply a reconstruction of an animal from the area with a short description. This is fine, but I believe that the importance of preservation fidelity in conservation Lagerstaetten means it would be an improvement to the article if the associated thumbnails were photographs of various specific fossils from the localities where possible. Many of the entries on the list have such thumbnails, but I think a more uniform theme would be appropriate. I wasn't sure if this was something that needed discussion before making the edit so I figured I would ask. A Cynical Idealist (talk) 06:56, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Lagerstätte/Lagerstätten or lagerstätte/lagerstätten?

Currently, this article uses capitalised and non-capitalised versions of the words lagerstätte and lagerstätten. This usage is inconsistent. I suggest that this article should be consistent in its use of upper case or lower case letters for these words. I think that specific examples, e.g. Canjuers Lagerstätte, would be proper names, and the upper case Lagerstätte is appropriate. However, when referring to a single unnamed occurrence of the phenomenon in general terms (i.e. as a common noun) should this article use "a Lagerstätte" or "a lagerstätte"? When referring to the group of some or all occurrences (i.e. as a common noun) should this article use Lagerstätten or lagerstätten? Lagerstätte is an English word (e.g. it is in the Oxford English Dictionary), albeit derived from German. I think "a lagerstätte" and "lagerstätten" would be more consistent with English grammar. Is it better for this Wikipedia article to follow English spelling and case conventions rather than German spelling rules? GeoWriter (talk) 19:24, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

In the absence of any objections or comments, I have changed the article to use lowercase versions of these words when not part of a proper name. GeoWriter (talk) 17:22, 14 February 2024 (UTC)