Talk:National redoubt

Fictional

extract from the article: "The concept of a "last stand" national stronghold also appears in fictional works, perhaps most famously in the movie based on J.R.R. Tolkien's The Two Towers. In that movie, the people of Rohan, fearing an attack of superior numbers by the armies of Isengard, leave their capital city of Edoras to take refuge in the fortress of Helm's Deep."

Surely 'in the book' rather than 'in the movie' would be more appropriate? (Fdsdh1 (talk) 00:23, 26 September 2012 (UTC))

Orphan

This fine bit of writing is in danger of becoming an orphan, but it's not obvious from where to link to it. World War II seems a little high-level, but I don't think we have a survey of ETO strategy? Stan 14:45, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Stan, thanks for your comments. I found it in Requested Articles, so someone must have wanted it to link to something. History of Germany, Nazi Germany, World War II come to mind. What is ETO? Adam 14:52, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Tough to get in the habit of eating in one's own restaurant, eh? :-) ETO points you to European Theater of Operations (admittedly I just made the acronym link a moment ago!). I improvised a link from Nazi Germany. Stan 16:48, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

From the Article: "Nevertheless it was taken sufficiently seriously by the western Allies to lead them to divert their military operations in early 1945 to the south, thus allowing the Soviet forces to capture Berlin."

Berlin would've fallen into the Soviet sphere of influence as agreed at Yalta. That is why Eisenhower refused to sacrifice more lives to capture it. Not the "National Redoubt"

That is stated in the last paragraph. Adam 02:52, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

I added it's link to The battel of Berlin, Werwolves and Partisans.--Homer slips. 04:08, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Name of article

I think this should be moved to Alpenfestung: historically there were and are national redoubts other than the Nazi one. For example, Battle of the Netherlands links here, due to Vesting Holland (Fortress Holland). I believe Switzerland has also employed the concept of a national redoubt in its defensive planning, during WW2 and the Cold War Grant65 | Talk 04:14, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I have no knowledge of Switzerland during the Cold War, but according to Target Switzerland: Swiss Armed Neutrality in World War II, the plan was to retreat to the Alps in the south of the country. DocWatson42 11:02, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Articles should have English titles unless the German word is standard in English (eg Luftwaffe). If there were other national redoubts, they can be disambiguated from this one, which is the best known in English. The Dutch one was called, as you yourself say, Fortress Holland, which should be the title of that article. Adam 13:17, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, Alpine Fortress would be almost as good but I think Alpenfestung is well-known in militrary history circles. The point is, a "national redoubt" could be almost anywhere and is to generic to be applied purely to Germany 1945. Cheers, Grant65 | Talk 14:31, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

This article isn't about "a national redoubt" it's about the National Redoubt. I have never heard this expression used in any other context but the one in the article. If it has been used in other contexts they can be disambiguated in the usual way. Adam 15:01, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I can assure you that it is a more general term (please consult a military dictionary); as such the concept "National Redoubt" needs a general treatment. You are mistaken in your assumption that "National Redoubt" was purely used as a proper name even in 1944. Indeed, it hardly could have been: why would they have called this example the National Redoubt if the general term wasn't functional? However, Alpenfestung was the German proper name and there is of course no objection whatsoever to use German proper names for German phenomena that have such names :o). Obviously we might create a more general article and disambiguate from that.--MWAK 13:37, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Proposed Merger With Reduit

I think that the articles should remain separate. Although they are conceptually similar, the Reduit article refers almost entirely to Switzerland. The easiest solution is to re-title the Reduit article to Swiss Reduit, and create prominent links between the two articles. Trasel (talk) 04:52, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Fictional section moved from the article for further discussion

Fictional section from the article

The concept of a "last stand" national stronghold also appears in fictional works, perhaps most famously in the movie based on J.R.R. Tolkien's The Two Towers. In that movie, the people of Rohan, fearing an attack of superior numbers by the armies of Isengard, leave their capital city of Edoras to take refuge in the fortress of Helm's Deep. Tolkien himself used the concept in The Return of the King, where during the Siege of Minas Tirith most of the civilian populace retreats to the vales of the White Mountains, while the majority of the military gathers in Minas Tirith.

While I agree with the inferences drawn from the book this section is unsuitable in its current form. It is a breach of WP:OR because it is an an analysis of a primary source by an editor of Wikipedia without any citations to back it up. For such an analysis to appear in a Wikipedia article it need as reliable secondary source to make the claims for us. Eg: "The concept of a "last stand" national stronghold also appears in fictional works"(citation to a secondary source) "[According to professor Smyth] perhaps most famously in the movie based on J.R.R. Tolkien's The Two Towers"(citation to Smyth's paper) "In that moviebook the people of Rohan, fearing an attack of superior numbers by the armies of Isengard, leave their capital city of Edoras to take refuge in the fortress of Helm's Deep. (Citation to a secondary source about the plot of the book that makes this point). etc, etc. -- PBS (talk) 12:37, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Alpine Fortress should be spun out

Many of the less prominent "national redoubts" already have independent articles, surely the most historically well-known example should get an article of its own too.--Pharos (talk) 20:49, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

• Support Split into seperate article.

Difference between "national redoubt" and "temporary capital"?

Is there any proper definition of the difference between this concept and temporary capital? They seem pretty close, especially in the Chinese and Russian cases.--Pharos (talk) 03:41, 7 May 2014 (UTC)