Talk:Stefan Czarniecki

Jews during the Deluge

The fate of Jews during the Deluge certainly deserves mentioning in Deluge (history) article. If certain communities were affected during notable military operations, the relevant battle/siege/etc. articles should state so. There is no need to add that information to the articles of rulers/military commanders/etc. of that period, unless they were directly responsible/participated in such attrocities.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  16:16, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Every commander is responsible for atrocities committed by his troops. Czarniecki's name is mentioned in every reference. So no whitewashing please. M0RD00R 16:26, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if he is mentioned in the context, you could as well blame the 17th century, too. It matters whether he is held responsible for it. And none of the sources you provided claim that he did anything then be a leader of the army, during a period in which millions of Commonwealth citizens - inluding hundreds of thousands of Jews - were killed. Czarniecki, however, did not give orders to the troops to kill those citizens. Thus this is not relevant - just as we don't include info on Holocaust losses in biographies of WWII commanders.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  16:33, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes he is held responsible: Universal Jewish Encyclopedia "Stefan Czarniecki incited a riot in which more than 600 Jews lost their lives", Encyclopaedia Judaica "the Polish general S. Czarniecki persecuted the Jews of Srem". So the ball is on your side to present the sources of his innocence. M0RD00R 16:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Universal Jewish Encyclopedia (1939-1943) and Encyclopaedia Judaica (1971-1972) are not academic sources; they are encyclopedias - commonly based on unreliable, 19th century or older sources and with significant bias. They encountered criticism from prominent scholars for wholesale reprinting of patently outdated entries; ignoring important events and personalities while including entries on figures and events that are (at best) of marginal interest or significance. For example, see critical reviews in the The Jewish Quarterly Review by Solomon Zeitlin (ex.[1]), or the article presented during the Proceedings of the 37th Annual Convention of the Association of Jewish Libraries by David B. Levy (particulary the 'Bias and Unstated Ulterior Assumptions in the JE' and 'Criticisms of the EJ: Zeitlin, Agus, and the Jewish Spectator' chapters in 'THE MAKING OF THE ENCYCLOPAEDIA JUDAICA AND THE JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA' [2]). Of course, those are still valuable sources - but per WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE, for such dubious claims, please show reliable academic sources supporting such claims. -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  16:49, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

If we can show that modern scholarly publications attribute some of Jewish suffering during that period to Czarniecki, I do believe we should make a note of that in the article. But a few websites and information about Jewish suffering during that period (partially overlapping with the Chmielnicki Uprising) don't make Czarniecki a "Jewish Butcher".-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:31, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Every single statement is sourced prefectly fine with WP:RS. "Few websites" as you are trying to label them, are only electronic versions of published encyclopedias and book by Kandel. M0RD00R (talk) 19:40, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Reliability of most of your sources was explained above. Not everything that calls itself an encyclopedia is reliable. And who is Kandel? -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:50, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Your opinion that Jewish encyclopedias fall under WP:FRINGE category is just your opinion. If you have no idea who is Kandel, when I suggest familiarize with subject and sources first, and delete later. M0RD00R (talk) 20:07, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

It is easy to throw filth on any historical person using outdated sources. Reference it with modern academic sources and it will be OK. It still seems to me it is a problem for you. - Darwinek (talk) 20:39, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

What is with sources used in article that you don't like. They all are modern. And perfectly good according to WP:RS M0RD00R (talk) 20:43, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Right you want modern sources and so delete

1. Shmuel Spector, Geoffrey Wigoder The Encyclopedia of Jewish Life Before and During the Holocaust, NYU Press, 2001, p. 259
2. Waldemar Kowalski, Jadwiga Muszyńska Żydzi wśród chrześcijan w dobie szlacheckiej Rzeczypospolitej, Kieleckie Towarzystwo Naukowe, Wyższa Szkoła Pedagogiczna w Kielcach, Instytut Historii, 1996, p. 212
3. Pinkas hakehillot Polin by Yad Vashem.

And so on. No comments. M0RD00R (talk) 20:50, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Do those sources call Czarniecki a 'Jewish Butcher'? It seems they just mention that Jews suffered in the Deluge; so did Poles, Lithuanians, Armenians, Germans and others inhabiting the Commonwealth. To blame Czarniecki for deaths of civilians during the war is quite another thing.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:53, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Czarniecki was called butcher by Jewish chronicles. This fact was sourced also, but nevertheless it was deleted. I guess mentioning of Czarniecki in Polish National Anthem gives him immunity from WP:RS. M0RD00R (talk) 20:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Between 1648 and 1672 Poland lost more than half of its population. Czarniecki did not care if his troops killed Jews, Polish peasants or Ukrainians, as back then notion of a nation did not exist. Therefore, calling him a butcher is an exaggeration, as all military commanders of that time acted in the same way. As for Jewish cooperation with the Swedes, well, this deserves a note and I will try to provide one. It is interesting that we often hear about pogroms of Jews, but never about reasons of these events. Perhaps user Mordoor would be interested in this subject - why there were pogroms of Jews, but not of Germans or Poles. Tymek (talk) 05:04, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

For the record, there were those two - or to be specific, pogroms of Protestants (Poles, Germans, etc., with the most prominent being the Arianie). They were targeted since some collaborated with Protestant Swedes. I have never heard however about Jews being singled during the Deluge - but again, this was around the time of Chmielnicki uprising when they were indeed singled by the Cossacks.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 05:52, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Stefan Czarniecki/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Albacore (talk · contribs) 04:26, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

I will review this article on Saturday. Albacore (talk) 04:26, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Comments:

• Fix DAB links.
  • I am unable to find out any information on which Stanisław Potocki wrote about Czarniecki. (Perhaps it was Stanisław Kostka Potocki, but I can't be sure). Sokołowka should be a red link, but more so, it probably should pipe to a Ukrainian place I am not totally sure how to transliterate. (pl:Sokołówka (rejon buski), ukr: Соколівка). I will go with Sokolívka for now. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 17:34, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

• File:Stefan Czarniecki.PNG Can you publish a PD image under a Creative Commons license?
  • I asked about it on Commons. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 17:34, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

• Instead of citing the Leszek Podhorodecki (1 January 1998). Stefan Czarniecki. reference over and over, why don't you create a "bibliography" section and use a template like {{Harvard citation no brackets}} to cite the pages? This would apply to all books used more than once.
  • I never got into a habit of using Harvard citations, which I believe are not required. I have no objections if somebody wants to spend the required hour or so, but I prefer to write content, now that refs are passable (even for a FA level). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 17:34, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

• Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth ->> Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth on all mentions.
  • Done.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 17:34, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

• Ref 50 needs a cite template
  • Of course, missed that. Done. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 17:34, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

• Wikipedia discourages the use of all-caps in references, as in ref 26
  • Even if the original chapter title uses all-caps? I wouldn't have used all-caps otherwise. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 17:34, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
    • Yes, please remove the all-caps. Albacore (talk) 18:01, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
      • Done. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 18:38, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

• Use an ndash for year ranges and page ranges.
  • Would you have the script that fixes that? Fix dashes button in WikiEd is not doing that. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 17:34, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

• According to WP:FURTHER the Further reading section should not contain works that are used in the Reference section, unless the References section is too long for a reader to use as part of a general reading list. If a bibliography section were to be added as described above, the further reading section could be removed or filled with other works.
  • Agreed. Podhorecki entry removed. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 17:34, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

The review on prose will begin when the comments have been responded to. Albacore (talk) 14:29, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Prose

• The date of his birth is only an assumption, as no documents exist to prove it without a doubt; most historians accept the 1599 date, although Zdzisław Spieralski argued for 1604 1. Period needed. 2. Multiple references (three or four) are needed for the claim most historians accept the 1599 date
  • I added one more ref, both Podhoreci and Karsten wrote dedicated bios of Czarnecki, and Karsten in the GBooks snipped I see clearly states 1599 is the commonly accepted estimate. A claim by reliable historian in a dedicated book should be good enough, I'd think. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 17:51, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

• We know nothing about his childhood. I don't think the use of "we" is allowed outside of quotes. Would prefer a term like "historians".
  • Passive tense used. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 17:51, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

• achieving a solid middle education. What is a "solid middle education"?
  • Changed to secondary. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 17:51, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

• Hetman Stefan Czarniecki in red bekiesza. Holds buława in right hand. Note crimson shoes (buty karmazynowe), a sign of wealth and rank (magnates nickname were 'karmazyni' - the crimson ones - because of those boots. 1. Holds buława in right hand. is not a complete sentence. 2. Missing an end parentheses at the end of the sentence. 3. The claim "a sign of wealth and rank" needs a reference. 4. magnates nickname were 'karmazyni' - the crimson ones - because of those boots Reference needed. 5. The hyphens should be ndashes.
  • C/e-ed, added ref. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 17:51, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
    • He holds buława in right hand. Still not a complete sentence. Albacore (talk) 18:01, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
      • Has subject and verb, looks complete to me. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 18:38, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
        • Added a few words. Albacore (talk) 19:00, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
• ended the Polish-Ottoman War (1620–1621). Polish-Ottoman ->> Polish–Ottoman
  • Done.

• Polish-Swedish War same as above, twice in article
  • Done.

• On August 6-7 ndash
  • Done.

• fought.[11][8] switch references
  • Done.

• he learned Western tactics, comma unnecessary
  • Done.

• in 1635 he might have served as a military adviser to John II Casimir Vasa, and possibly accompanied him to Vienna. 1. Watch capitalization. 2. The statement after "and" is ambiguous; who accompanied who to Vienna?
  • C/e through I see nothing wrong with capitalizatin here. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 17:51, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
    • After that war, he moved to a more prestigious hussar unit (rota), and likely due to a reduction of the royal army, he served in the private formation of Władysław Myszkowski and later, voivode Stanisław Lubomirski.[17] in 1635 he might have served as a military adviser to John II Casimir Vasa, and possibly accompanied the king to Vienna. Watch capitalization. Albacore (talk) 18:01, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
      • You'll have to be less cryptic than just quoting the text in which I still see no problem. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 18:38, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
        • My mistake. It's the sentence that ends with "voivode Stanisław Lubomirski.[17]" and the next sentence that begins with "in". Albacore (talk) 19:00, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
          • Done. On a sidenote, and speaking as a GAN reviewer too, it is often easier to fix such things than try to explain them to somebody :D --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 20:18, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
• In 1637 he married Zofia Kobierzycka,[17] and Later capitalization
  • Done.

• Returning from it, according to Nagielski witnessed the massacre of Polish prisoners in the aftermath of the Battle of Batoh;[21] This 1. Caps 2. The statement after according should be rewritten.
  • Done.

• Who is "Podhorodecki"? Please elaborate a bit.
  • Done (earlier in the first para).

• Template:Quote would handle the quote better.
  • I don't think it's long enough for such a break.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 17:51, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

• He continued his suppression campaign in 1654, an in following January took part in the Battle of Okhmativ. 1. an ->> and. 2. What made it a "suppression campaign"?
  • Not sure what you are asking here; I think it is a straightforward military term. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 17:51, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

I am up to the "The Deluge" section. Albacore (talk) 15:29, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

More:

• What was the result of that discussion on the Commons?
  • I asked an experienced editor here and received no reply. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 21:07, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

• Consider linking abdication and regimentarz
  • Linked abdication; regimentarz already linked upon first use.

• He led guerrilla warfare against Swedish troops of Charles X, a type of a campaign he authored, despite the objections of the then-returned under the royal banner again hetmans. I don't follow what is meant by the "then-returned under the royal banner again hetmans".
  • It means that after betraying the king, the hetmans changed the flag again and returned to him; then objected to Czarniecki's tactics. I agree the sentence is poorly worded; I attempted to rewrite it.

• were proven to be rather vulnerable to Czarniecki's guerrilla-style warfare. 1. were proven --> proved 2. de-link guerrilla
  • Done.

• the Danish-Swedish War, ->> the Danish–Swedish War

• Instead of ... would attempt to involve him ... why not just "attempted to involve him"? A sentence explaining whether he became involved would be nice too.
  • I believe he succeeded but I won't be able to verify the source till December.

• I feel like File:Lesseur-Czarniecki.jpg is better than the one currently used in the article for the lead image.

• I feel that File:Stafan Czarniecki 1.PNG should be used in the "Legacy" section.
  • How about you change them then? Art is in the eye of the beholder, I'll comment if I disagree after your switch.

• During the period of Enlightenment in Poland he was written about by poets and writers such as Stanisław Potocki, Franciszek Karpiński, Julian Ursyn Niemcewicz and Franciszek Ksawery Dmowski, and a biography by Michał Krajewski, cementing his legend of a hero rescuing Poland from anarchy and invasion, a legend that became even stronger during the times of the partitions of Poland in the 19th century, where the artists of the Polish romanticism period used him as a symbol of patriotism, and a reminder of military successes. Definitely break into two or more sentences
  • • Done.

• Finally, I would recommend that you check the Article in Polish to see if there is anything to add.
  • I believe I did so when writing this article, and all interesting items I was able to reference were added.

I will pass when these comments are addressed. Albacore (talk) 18:07, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Replied to all points. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 21:08, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Issues have now been fixed, so the article passes. Wizardman 03:54, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

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Czarniecki is racist

Czarniecki had a savage hatred against Ukrainians. He is known for razing the village of Subotiv, desecrating the graves of Bohdan Khmelnytskyi and Tymish Khmelnytskyi by digging them out and shoot their remnants out of field guns. He is definitely worst than Stepan Bandera. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 02:32, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

Polish version

There is no Polish language listed under “Languages” in the English Wikipedia. Must be added. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.192.120.166 (talk) 01:57, 22 December 2020 (UTC) On my device, Polish is listed, unsurprisingly.--Quisqualis (talk) 03:55, 25 December 2020 (UTC)