Talk:The Doobie Brothers

NPOV Violations

I have written a substantial portion of this article and most of my non-NPOV fanisms have been properly edited or removed over time, in accordance with Wikipedia policy. Recent edits have added substantial non-NPOV opinion regarding Michael McDonald and Sibling Rivalry. I modified it once, but the user essentially reverted my edits and restored his strong, non-NPOV opinions. In my view, this violates Wikipedia's NPOV policy and allows a single user's opinions to hijack the article. However, since I am not interested in engaging in running combat with other users, I'm going to leave it to someone else to decide whether the article, in its current form, is consistent with Wikipedia's NPOV policy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.97.239.130 (talk) 18:09, 10 June 2008 (UTC) I have added neutrality disputed tags to the most egregious passages. Somebody deleted my neutrality disputed tags without really changing the non-neutral POV of the statements. I've added them back. Users' opinions regarding the relative quality of various Doobie Brothers albums are not neutral facts - they are your opinions. I like Sibling Rivalry better than Brotherhood; you hate Sibling Rivalry and say Brotherhood is the best album since Vices. Those are just our opinions based on our musical taste.

Just curious, how were your NPOV comments regarding Sibling Rivalry ok to keep in the article, & other's NPOV remarks, (whether they be about Sibling Rivalry or some other aspect of the band), "had" to be removed? A bit disingenuous on your part it seems. Also, go back & read everything I posted, I thought Brotherhood was their best album since Livin' On The Fault Line, my comments regarding Brotherhood & Vices were on the Tom Johnston led versions of the band, not overall.

I had a colorful rejoinder to your accusation that I am a liar, but the moderators removed it. Without using any more expletives, I'll just say that I do not restore my non-NPOV comments after other users remove them, whereas you seem to be monitoring this page and restoring your non-NPOV remarks constantly. Your opinions, whether widely shared or not, are not facts. Note to Wikipedia moderator - this is not vandalism, this is a constructive discussion about Wikipedia's NPOV policy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.124.56.55 (talk) 23:36, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Obviously you misunderstood the differences between disingenuous & being a liar, which I never accused you of.

You seem to think since you "created" this article, that only you are entitled to post anything on it, & often in doing so expose your lack of knowledge, (beyond the general) regarding the band. Just FYI, I don't monitor this page, (but obviously you do, as you continue to edit according to your wishes, disregarding facts that are given many times over), but I do a lot of article writing & editing on many Wikipedia pages, not to reflect my own bias, but to clarify so many poorly researched & completely inaccurate articles. The article on Fred Lorenzen, (former Nascar racer), needed so much editing that I basically had to write a new article to correct all of the inaccuracies therein.

I do keep tabs on the various articles I've contributed to, to ensure that the facts I post aren't removed or distorted, & than any new information I have is added. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.119.86.155 (talk) 16:57, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

I didn't create this article. I don't revert edits to my content. I don't report my opinions as fact. I pretty much don't do anything you accuse me of. I have not provided significant editorial content to this article in months. The only thing I've done is add neutrality disputed tags to your opinions. You remove the tags and leave your opinions. You are attributing other authors' edits to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.124.56.55 (talk) 06:15, 2 January 2009 (UTC) By the way, I know a hell of a lot about the Doobie Brothers, jerkweed.

Fanisms & opinions

In describing "What a Fool Believes", this article claims "A glance at the sheet music for this pop gem quickly impresses one with the degree of musical complexity the composers managed to pack into a #1 pop hit, an almost unheard-of blend of sophistication with accessibility". I'm not sure if the articles' author was being sarcastic here or really believes (as fools often do), that this pathetic piece of disco drivel has some hidden musical merit. At least the early Doobie Brothers songs were original and good listening (o.k., maybe this one was easier to dance to).173.61.156.104 (talk) 14:38, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

This really is a good, enjoyable and very informative article, but it has a number of POV opinions rather than fact-based material and contains a lot of statements not cited/verified by legitimate sources. I removed one statement entirely concerning Simmons' resignation due to his alleged remark/feelings about essentially being in "The Michaal McDonald Group", which may be true if you look at the last album credits, but it's not sourced. I also adjusted one statement about "The Doctor" being "China Grove" in reverse, which is not true; being a musician, I can verify that based strictly on the 30-second clip on Amazon as I can't find my "Cycles" CD at the moment and it's not a cited statement anyway. If you find a legitimate source to back these claims up, add them back with the citation added for them. For the record, I didn't add the header at the top of the article, so I'm not the only one who feels the article needs sourcing badly, but I really do enjoy it nonetheless; there are some really knowledgable die-hard fans contributing to this article indeed.--Bamadude 00:58, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm one of those that has contributed "POV" based material, but everything I have posted has been published in one form or another in various book, newspaper, online, and magazine articles over the past thirty plus years, (as an example the Rolling Stone Encyclopedia Of Rock & Roll had the comment about the Doobies basically being McDonald's backing band by the time of "One Step Closer" when Andy Newmark replaced Knudsen on drums on tour, that I added. I have a vast memory about the Doobies & their history, but I can't always cite the exact sources I quote from. As for the comment about "The Doctor"/"China Grove" similarities, though I didn't add it, both Tomy Johnston & John Hartman were quoted over the years regarding the similarities between the two songs, especially in the guitar chords, & the use of echo on the opening chords to both songs, & how the echo isn't used furtjer into the songs on the same chords, (read about their doing that for "China Grove", in the booklet to the "Long Train Running" box set for further info. Now, if you listen to "The Doctor", you can hear that they used the same effect. You don't need to cite any sources but your ears & your knowledge of music to notice that). Nothing I post is strictly "POV", but is based on knowledge & information I have about the Doobies and/or music in general. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bluesman Mark (talk • contribs) 12:03, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

With all due respect, if there are no citations it is POV regardless of how accurate that POV may be.THX1136 (talk) 18:59, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Agree with THX1136. Also, no flaming, please. (I myself have no particular interest in the Doobies, but I care a lot about the integrity of Wikipedia, and sustaining the courtesy of its community.) Acwilson9 (talk) 00:00, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

What's Happening

Maybe you should mention their appearance on What's Happening!!. My foggy memory is that they had a two-part episode. The gang gets to know them and go to their concert, but Rerun accepts money to carry a tape recorder to the concert to make a bootleg live album and gets caught. The Doobies then have a long explanation of the moral of the story and Rerun tries to con out the bootleggers... Or something like that. Mpolo 19:34, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC)

Very true. It was one of the first times What's Happening!! had important guest stars like that. The episodes aired in January 1978...and for the most part, you have all the details correctly. Rerun didn't do it for his own benefit, though; thugs basically told him to do it or else. Mike H 22:07, Feb 18, 2005 (UTC)

Origins

Where are they from though? --71.112.134.81 02:06, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

San Francisco--Bamadude 00:58, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Yacht Rock reference necessary at the end of the article.

---

Why haven't they made the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame? Not enough stability? They certainly have sold enough albums.

---

This is question that boggles the mind. The fact that the likes of the Beastie Boys are inducted but not the Doobs is an illustration of the sheer political nature of that institution. A total farce to be sure. Mofo80503 (talk) 04:33, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

The album "On Our Way Up" is a bootleg

The album "On Our Way Up" I have learned to be an unauthorized release of early Doobie Brothers demos from 1970. As such I think it shouldn't be included and I am therefore removing it from the list. It's a bootleg in other words.--Peter Jensen 04:51, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

B. R. Cohn Winery is part of Doobies history

I have contributed a substantial amount of information to this entry, but several different people over the past several months have removed my references to the B. R. Cohn Winery on grounds that Bruce Cohn is "advertising his products" on Wikipedia. I'm a knowledgeable fan of the band and not affiliated with B. R. Cohn in any way. I personally find it interesting that he's carved out a niche as a successful vintner on the side, while still managing the Doobie Brothers full-time for 36 years. I don't understand how disclosure of this fact constitutes abuse or misuse of Wikipedia.

Sibling Rivalry

I must disagree with the opinion of whoever claimed that this was the best of the reunion bands albums. As one who has been a loyal fan of the band since their very first LP I found it to be the single most disappointing project put out by the band. The sound was thin and didn't showcase either Pat or Tommy's guitar work very well. It reminded me of Pat's solo album Arcade in terms of sound (which I believe was the reason that Pat's solo album didn't do well, since the single off it did well in the live shows where it had the thick, chunky sound people loved.). There are some good songs on the album however it certainly wasn't the best and the sales reflect this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mercwyn (talk • contribs) 21:48, 28 November 2006

Fair use rationale for Image:Minutedooobie.jpg

Image:Minutedooobie.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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Citations & References

See Wikipedia:Footnotes for an explanation of how to generate footnotes using the <ref(erences/)> tags Nhl4hamilton (talk) 09:00, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

In "The 1990s" section, the claim that the 1991 tour "was ranked among the ten least profitable tours" cites "Billboard Magazine, December 14, 1989". That's over a year and a half before the tour happened, so that can't be right. Could that be meant for another point? (Coincidentally, I know from having tickets to that tour that Joe Walsh cancelled at our show (and, if memory serves, several others) and tickets refunds were offered, which may partially explain the lack of profitability. I don't have a reference or more details on that, though.) GonzoGed (talk) 14:23, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Former Members

It looks like there was a former members section before, but has since been removed. Infobox has a link that when I accessed it tried to go to #Former members or something. I just changed to the target to #Band because that's the closest thing on this page that resemebles without changing the link text. As it is now, though, is kinda misdirectional. If someone who works this page often could fix that up that'd be awesome.The freddinator (talk) 03:10, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Top image

It states in the caption that the concert was held at Wolf Trap. But in the description it says that the concert was in Australia. Which one is right? 76.111.67.200 (talk) 00:03, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Puffery

This article is full of puffery, promotional language, and is generally in a non-NPOV state. I added the puffery tag because I don't have time at the moment to tackle it (it's going to be a bit of work), but it definitely needs a major overhaul. Qwyrxian (talk) 12:25, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

define "slinky" or add ref

Ry Cooder is said to have added "slinky" sound. The use of this word can be traced to some music reviewers, but what place does it have here in a Wikipedia article without such a reference given that wiktionary.org is of no help. Is this a pastiche from uncredited music magazine articles? Who wrote "slinky" of Ry Cooder with regard to a side cut with this band?

I listen to Ry Cooder and "slinky" means nothing to me.

What is disturbing is to see the sheer bulk of this article with so little content by which a reader, say a classical musician, could form some opinion of what to expect of a recording by this "band".

Or is the article only intended for fans? Is there a Fan-pedia on the web?

G. Robert Shiplett 22:18, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Membership timeline

Doobie Brothers#Band_members could be summarized (or perhaps replaced) by a "EasyTimeline". Here's an example as a starting point:

For this example I limited myself to five members, and used brown vertical bars to mark the period when they were disbanded.

You'll have to view the source of this talk section to see how how I did this, but here's the crucial bit of syntax to note:

 bar:TJohnston from:1970 till:1977 color:yellow
 bar:TJohnston from:1987 till:end  color:yellow
 bar:PSimmons  from:1970 till:1982 color:green
 bar:PSimmons  from:1987 till:end  color:green
 bar:JHartman  from:1971 till:1979 color:red
 bar:JHartman  from:1987 till:1997 color:red
 bar:MHossack  from:1971 till:1973 color:blue
 bar:MHossack  from:1987 till:2012 color:blue
 bar:KKnudsen  from:1973 till:1982 color:orange
 bar:KKnudsen  from:1987 till:1988 color:orange
 bar:KKnudsen  from:1993 till:2005 color:orange

What do you think? 68.165.77.221 (talk) 23:22, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Do it. - Metalello (talk) 08:38, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

the/The

You are invited to participate in an RfC at Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation/The Beatles on the issue of capitalising the definite article when mentioning that band's name in running prose. This long-standing dispute is the subject of an open mediation case and we are requesting your help with determining the current community consensus. Thank you.--andreasegde (talk) 07:44, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Non POV question

The following sentence seems to be blatant POV - "No fans of rock music were sad at the death of the band, nor would ever miss the soft-rock noodlings of a once-enjoyable pop group."

I was tempted to remove it, but after reading the "silliness" that has occurred on this article on doing this sort of editing I would rather give others a chance to offer an opinion before doing so. The ball is in your court, so to speak. If no comments are offered within 30 days or so I will remove the offending sentence. Thoughts?THX1136 (talk) 15:57, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Its full of garbage. They transitioned from AOR to soft rock, and were successful in doing it. Just like .38 Special. Please take out the trash.

Origin of the band's name?

While I _assume_ it's a pot reference, I'm not actually sure of this. Can someone up to doing the research add a sentence on the topic? Jbsegal (talk) 16:15, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

It is... I recall an interview by Tom Johnston (I think) back in 1979-80 timeframe on KLRB in Carmel saying it was but in a roundabout underhanded way. I was stationed at Ft. Ord at the time.Mofo80503 (talk) 04:23, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

Is this a reliable source? Q&A with a Doobie Brother, Minnesota Daily, 4/4/2013. Minnesota Daily is a student newspaper, so probably not usually a RS, but it seems like a genuine interview:

(Q) "I heard that the Doobie Brothers was an impromptu, jury-rigged name that just stuck."

(A) "True. We couldn’t come up with one. There was a guy who lived in the house with us who came up with the name. At that point we were still playing locally. We had a guy in the house who said, “Why don’t you call yourself the Doobie Brothers because you’re always smoking.” Everybody looked at each other and said, “Well that’s really a stupid name.”"

Adpete (talk) 06:15, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

List of The Doobie Brothers band members

Support split - The list of band members takes up more than one quarter of the page, and should be split to a new article entitled List of The Doobie Brothers band members. Thoughts? --Jax 0677 (talk) 15:48, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

I think that would be fine. The problem is that currently the section has no references – and you can't very well create an article (and expect it not to be deleted) without sources. So, I think we need to concentrate on improving the section first. (By the way, the link in the template redirects back.) —Musdan77 (talk) 01:38, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

Associated issue: Member Timeline excludes a number of the members. This should be fixed. (I am not knowledgeable enough about the Doobies to do this myself.) Acwilson9 (talk) 23:54, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

since when is a BAND a "living person"?

"This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons."

And the article United States "contains material about living persons" and therefore must immediately be edited to conform to standards, as well as be properly integrated into WikiProject Biography.

The same claim can as validly be made for Walmart or Python (programming language) or other bands (Deep Purple, say) or a million other articles.

MY SUGGESTION: if the "biographical" data in articles such as this is actually being upheld as of such significance, then it should be removed to actual biographical articles to which any reader can readily click.

One set of standards, equally applied! Weeb Dingle (talk) 19:13, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Bands/groups are made up of members and all these members are "persons" (mostly "living"). You can't very well talk about a band without talking about what the members did (allegedly). What they did is biographical, and as such, follows WP:Biographies of living persons, which basically means that the claims made should be according to WP:V -- as well as WP:NPOV. (By the way, those things you put in bold should be blue instead [wikilinks].) —Musdan77 (talk) 00:25, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Agree with Musdan77 (except possibly for fake bands - perhaps The Archies? (JOKE!)). Acwilson9 (talk) 23:28, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

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Members Section

Hello,

I would like to discuss making a change to the “Members” section of this page. Specifically, in the “Former Touring Members,” “Official Member Timeline,” and “Touring Member Timeline” sections.

I am suggesting that Bobby Lakind and Willie Weeks be removed from the “Former Touring Members” and “Touring Member Timeline” and added to the “Official Member Timeline.” This is because they are former members of the Doobie Brothers.

My first two examples of this are the actual albums where they are pictured and credited as band members.

If you click on “More Images” from the 1982 “Farewell Tour” album you will see Bobby Lakind and Willie Weeks have pictures dedicated to them just as the other members do, and they are both listed as members of the band in the credits:

https://www.discogs.com/The-Doobie-Brothers-Farewell-Tour/master/95299

If you click on the “More Images” from the 1989 “Brotherhood” album you will see Bobby Lakind in the band photos, as well as listed as one of the Doobie Brothers:

https://www.discogs.com/The-Doobie-Brothers-Cycles/master/95295

There are also articles from mainstream publications that refer to both Bobby Lakind and Willie Weeks as Doobie Brothers.

Here is an article from the October 11, 1980 issue of Billboard Magazine with the announcement of Willie Weeks and Bobby Lakind becoming regular members of the Doobie Brothers:

https://books.google.com/books?id=EiUEAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PT102&dq=%22bobby%20lakind%22&pg=PT102#v=onepage&q&f=false

Here is a passage from the book The Encyclopedia of Popular Music that states Willie Weeks replaced Tiran Porter in the Doobie Brothers:

https://books.google.com/books?id=_NNmFiUnSmUC&lpg=PA754&dq=%22willie%20weeks%22%20%22doobie%20brothers%22&pg=PA754#v=onepage&q=%22willie%20weeks%22%20%22doobie%20brothers%22&f=false

Here is Bobby Lakind’s obituary in Variety that describes him as a “full time member” of the Doobie Brothers:

https://variety.com/1992/scene/people-news/bobby-lakind-102409/

Here is an article from the November 1989 on the Doobie Drummers. Bobby Lakind is pictured, listed, and profiled along with Michael Hossack and John Hartman:

https://moderndrummer.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/md120.pdf

Here is an article on Rhino.com about the 1987 Doobie Brothers reunion shows. It lists Bobby Lakind as one of the past members, and even explains how Willie Weeks was unavailable to join them:

https://www.rhino.com/article/rhino-historic-tours-the-doobies-do-the-hollywood-bowl

There are also interviews with members of the Doobie Brothers that mention how Bobby Lakind and Willie Weeks were members of the Doobie Brothers:

Here is a May 23, 1987 Los Angeles Times interview with Keith Knudsen about the Doobie Brothers reunion shows he put together. Bobby Lakind is listed alongside the other former members, and Willie Weeks is referred to as a former member, as well:

http://articles.latimes.com/1987-05-23/entertainment/ca-1984_1_doobies

Here is an August 30, 2015 interview with Michael McDonald that refers to Willie Weeks as a former Doobie Brother:

http://ultimateclassicrock.com/michael-mcdonald-no-lookin-back/

Here is a January 19, 2016 interview with Tom Johnston in Goldmine Magazine where he discusses how everyone in the band was invited to the 1987 reunion shows, but Willie Weeks didn’t do it:

https://www.goldminemag.com/articles/doobie-brothers-remain-vital

Finally, there are several different band photos that include Bobby Lakind and Willie Weeks.

Here is the Doobie Brothers page on Allmusic.com. Their photo is the 1989 lineup with Bobby Lakind:

https://www.allmusic.com/artist/bobby-lakind-mn0000081563/credits

Here is the Doobie Brothers page on Setlist.com that featured Bobby Lakind and Willie Weeks in the band photo:

https://www.setlist.fm/setlists/the-doobie-brothers-63d6be43.html

The second picture on this page is from the same photo shoot as the above, and features both Willie Weeks and Bobby Lakind:

https://rockandrollphotogallery.com/artist/doobie-brothers/

And here is a third picture from that photo shoot that includes Willie Weeks and Bobby Lakind and was turned into an official press photo for the band:

https://www.wolfgangs.com/photography/the-doobie-brothers/promo-print/ZZZ031067.html

The third band picture on this page features Willie Weeks and Bobby Lakind:

http://www.bay-area-bands.com/bab00006.htm

Thank you so much for your time and consideration on this. StrangersFan (talk) 12:13, 23 November 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by StrangersFan (talk • contribs) 04:04, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

Hello, it's been a month since I posted the above. Does anyone have an objection to the changes I am requesting to make to the Members section I detailed above with regards to Bobby LaKind and Willie Weeks? I would like to make the changes soon. Thank you! StrangersFan (talk) 02:40, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

Hello...it's been 2 months since I started the conversation on correcting the Members section. No one has objected so I will make the changes. If anyone disagrees with the links I posted above that detail why I am making these changes please let me know. Happy to discuss! Thank you! StrangersFan (talk) 21:04, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

OR/Non NPOV Man this article is rife with this stuff but this is blatant. "The combination of McDonald's cerebral approach to harmony, funkier beats and R&B vocal flavor, along with Baxter's guitar pyrotechnics, pushed the band away from the more proletarian biker-bong-boogie style that made them popular originally. The use of complex jazz chords, built on McDonald's thoroughly composed keyboard parts and tempered by strong pop hooks, resulted in an album that, though not really jazz, had a distinctly urban contemporary finish, adding the flavor of the "cool jazz" era to a pop setting.[citation needed]" I dont know how whoever posted that got the idea wiki is a platform for such drivel but I am deleting this OR with all due prejudice.

 Batvette (talk) 16:55, 13 July 2024 (UTC)