Talk:Georg Philipp Telemann

Stubby

Telemann deserves more that the pathetic little stub I found.....

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I've temporarily removed this:

Telemann turned down a prestigious job for a better payed job. The result: Bach got the job Telemann turned down.

This may well be true, but it seems pretty useless in its present form. I'll look into it, and if I can verify it, and turn it into something a bit more useful, I'll add it. --Camembert

Telemann and Bach both applied for the job as music director in Leipzig, and Telemann was offered and declined the position, which then was given to Bach (so Bach was the second choice, which I guess may show the contemporary view of the importance of these composers). This info can be found in the bio section I added a few days ago. Bobhobbit 21:22, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There could have been several reasons for this - one issue may have been a personal "fit" of the personalities of those making the decision with that of the composer that applied, but it is known that at that time Telemann was the bigger 'name.' Whatever - history has shown it was best for both Telemann and Bach that it happened that way. HammerFilmFan (talk) 12:29, 2 March 2011 (UTC) HammerFilmFan

Incorrect, the job was first offered to Telemann, then to a couple of others, and only then to Bach, making him 4th or 5th choice. Dunnhaupt 20:34, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

800 works?

"The Guinness Book of World Records lists Telemann as the most prolific composer of all time with more than 800 credited works. Put in other terms, it has been estimated that Telemann wrote more notes than Johann Sebastian Bach and Georg Frideric Handel combined!"

800 isn't really that many-- certainly less than Bach wrote, and probably Handel as well. I think Telemann boasted of having written over 600 suites or concertos alone (I can't remember which, though I wouldn't be surprised if he wrote over 600 of each). Does anybody know of a more accurate estimate of his total output?

More than 3,000, but the exact number will probably never be known. Many of the manuscripts were destroyed; the catalogues compiled in the 1980s and 1990s are probably close to complete, and probably contain at least the names of the lost works. The online New Grove has a good compilation. Antandrus (talk) 05:51, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

800 works is decidedly fewer than 1080 (in the Bach catalogue) or even 965 (in Deutsch's Schubert catalogue). How could Guinness be so far off? 3000 is decidedly larger, but how accurate is it? Also, "most prolific composer of all time" seems to imply not just that he wrote more works but that he is more well known, has a bigger "profile." That claim cannot be defended. Most prolific composer of his time, as the New Grove suggests, is believable.

This is ridiculous. Mozart's output is numerically inferior to Bach's, yet it runs to several hours more in total. Likewise, Simon Sechter wrote thousands of pieces, far more than Telemann - but many are incredibly short fugues. I suggest the word 'claimed' be added, since this is obvious a highly contestable statement.

82.40.163.5 (talk) 22:25, 20 April 2008 (UTC) (CRCDraper)

Trivia Section

Could someone please rewrite the Trivia Section... It is of horribly poor quality right now and not fit for wikipedia.

I agree; hopefully I fixed it to your satisfaction. I renamed it "works and reputation" (there's nothing trivial about his famous prolificity, and even less so his decline and sudden rise in reputation). Antandrus (talk) 05:48, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Prolificacy

New Grove clearly states in the lead to its Telemann article: "The most prolific composer of his time". Again, unless there is a counterexample, I am inclined to accept New Grove's judgment. —Sesquialtera II (talk) 02:13, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

First known concerto for viola

He also wrote a concerto for two violas, etc. (see Goebel's Archiv recording or the complete works edition) - and is it positively his only solo viola concerto? (I suspect so but do not know.) Schissel | Sound the Note! 17:16, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

"Der Schulmeister" spurious?

Are there any references for this edit? --Phrood 13:01, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

External links section and Referencing

I've added more information as to where the links lead. I've also moved the links to free scores and to the catalogues of publishers for the modern editions to the links section, where they more appropriately belong. However, Wikipedia is not the Yellow Pages. I left in the Prima la Musica! link, but really, it's only a catalogue of scores for sale and does not contain any appreciable extra information about Telemann or his works. Something to think about. As I said in the edit summary when I edited the references, this article could use A LOT more improvement in its referencing. Links to commercial sites selling scores far outnumber the listing of sources for the assertions, lists, etc in the article. If some of the informational links, e.g. the detailed biography on baroquemusic.org, were actually used as sources for the article, then they belong in the References section to acknowledge this. Not in the External links section. Presumably the contents of this article did not come out of nowhere. Voceditenore (talk) 06:54, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

TVWV vs. TWV?

Can someone give more precise info on this subject? I entered what I could glean here and in TWV, but I'm not sure. Are Telemann's vocal works identified both by a TWV and a TVWV? Or has TVWV been superseded by TWV? -- Kai Carver (talk) 20:58, 25 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaicarver (talk • contribs)

Composer project review

I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This article is a weak B; the musicology needs expansion, and personal details are lacking. My detailed review is on the comments page; questions and comments should be left here or on my talk page. Magic♪piano 01:38, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

This paragraph is suspect:

'Telemann traveled widely, absorbing various musical styles and incorporating them into his own compositions. He is known for writing concertos for unusual combinations of instruments, such as multiple violas, trumpets, timpanis, oboes, or harpsichords. Exposure to such a vast musical culture prompted him to incorporate unusual elements into his music as well, most notably the exotic sounds of the Middle East, India, Australia, and even the bleak and distant Siberia. Examples of his avant-garde exhibitionist style includes usage of the darbouka–a Middle Eastern drum–as a substitute for the timpani, an inclusion of a vast array of Indian sitars in his orchestral compositions, frequent sonic effects produced by the Aboriginal didgeridoo, and guest appearances of Siberian throat singers in his more operatic works. He has had great influence on composers many an era later, most notably Claude Debussy.'

Much of the detail would rely on accounts of Telemann's musicological interest, and I wonder whether the ethnomusicological evidence cited above was readily available in his lifetime. Specifically, he could not have known about the Australian didgeridoo.

Works and Reputation

Can we please either clean this section up or get rid of it entirely? It's a garbled mess, the first paragraph makes absolutely no sense, and it seems very disputable. Stjimmy61892 (talk) 15:43, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

I've fixed the biography and will clean up and expand the section in a few days. --Jashiin (talk) 09:18, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Most other major (and prolific) composers have separate sections listing their complete works. I cannot find one for Telemann. So if there is no movement in this direction in the next month or two, I intend to separate the works into a new article/list with a short summary left behind. Zeppelin42 (talk) 23:31, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Too much "Media"

Good grief - I've never seen soooooo many audio file links in a Media section. Moreover, it looks like something of a promotion for the "Advent Chamber Orchestra" (which I've never even heard of). Would anybody who's worked on the article care to take this on and trim these links? If not, I suppose I'll have to deal with it myself. Cgingold (talk) 23:41, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Please don't "trim" because you think there are too many. I certainly don't believe there are too many, but yes, perhaps we could find a better way to list them (e.g. in a table so that not so much vertical space is used; or perhaps on a separate page). If you feel that the recordings are not representative or "good", then perhaps you have a case to cull (but not based on quantity). Let's certainly wait until more feedback is presented before "trimming".  HWV258.  05:27, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm OK with trimming, or even jettisoning the entire section altogether (a link to Commons would be enough). There isn't much point in just listing every recording we have of Telemann's music. It wold make sense if the pieces chosen would be representative of certain points in Telemann's career, or particularly famous, etc. I'm going to start expanding the Works section in a few days, and maybe there will be place for a few recordings there, but obviously not for all of them. --Jashiin (talk) 09:18, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Wikipaper is free, and I don't mind if people have to scroll (especially near the bottom of a page). I disagree that a link to Commons is enough. Never assume that readers (especially children) will click through to something called "Commons". There is however a greater chance of people clicking media on the page they are on. Twenty three recordings represents "too much Media"? By whose measure? Perhaps the other articles don't have enough?  HWV258.  09:32, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

You're only addressing the problem of "too many" (by the way, if 23 isn't too much, where would you draw the line? At 50? At 100?), but not the other concerns. Why these particular recordings? More importantly, why these particular pieces? The answer is: because these are the only ones we have. If they were recordings of important and/or representative works - say, showing different types of concertos, different national styles, or simply famous pieces such as the Nouveaux quatuors - the section would look very competent and perfect for the article. But the way things are, the section looks as if we just slammed together everything we had of Telemann's works and put it here because we have to have a Media section. Which just doesn't look very good to me.

Personally, I like the approach taken with Bach's works. Johann Sebastian Bach is free to add descriptions of works and an occasional media file to give the listener an idea of these works (that this hasn't been done is just a matter of time, hopefully). And the many media files we have are all either in List of compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach or in articles on individual works. If we created a List of compositions by Georg Philipp Telemann, would you agree to move the audio files there and only keep here the ones that have significance for the upcoming "Works" section? The link to the list would be at the top of the "Works" section and inform the readers that there's a list and some media files as well. --Jashiin (talk) 10:10, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I've started to address the "problem" of "too many"—we can get to other aspects later. I do think it would be better to put most of the recordings on a new list page (when that exists). I'm only worried that we don't rush into something here. "Slammed"? There have been about 20 media links on the page for at least two years, during which time there have been almost 50,000 visits to the page. I haven't seen too many complaints. Now suddenly it's all subjective: "too many", "good grief", "soooooo many". Let's plan the change to make it acceptable for those that use the page and links.  HWV258.  10:27, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Allright then, I'll get to expanding "Works" in a few days, then I'll try to set up a list, and we'll go from there. Agreed? --Jashiin (talk) 10:42, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

It would be good to try. Perhaps I can help—I have some experience with composer lists (having construct almost all of the List of compositions by George Frideric Handel).  HWV258.  10:48, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

"where would you draw the line?". I'd like all of Telemann's works there. Is there anyone who deep down wouldn't? Why think small or old-fashioned? I don't particularly like the current elongated play button mechanism (which makes it difficult to display many works). Is there any way of making the buttons narrower? Earlier today I tried (very hard) to place the links in a table, but the (normally invisible) borders of the {{multi-listen ...}} template become visible when placed in a table. If someone can solve that, the current links can easily be placed in a neat table consisting of three columns by eight rows. The problem would go away (for some time at least).  HWV258.  10:48, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Plagio'

This is one of the worst-referenced articles on a major composer in Wikipedia. Huge chunks are lifted/re-worded from Grove, yet there are no in-line citations. I'm surprised Wiki hasn't received a legal notice from them. This article needs major overhaul to get it referenced properly. HammerFilmFan (talk) 12:52, 2 March 2011 (UTC) HammerFilmFan

Legacy

This fascinating remark -- that Spitta and Schweitzer "praised works they thought were composed by Bach, but which were, in fact, composed by Telemann" really requires some specific examples -- and references as well. If these are not added, somebody (maybe me) will surely delete the fascinating remark.David Couch (talk) 05:37, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

I have now found the source, which was implied by other posters above: Grove Music Online, where the Telemann article was written by Steven Zohn. I am afraid I must agree the current Wikipedia wording seems plagiarized and really needs to be re-written. David Couch (talk) 21:37, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Concerto Polonois 43:G7, and also clarification re: intellectual rights

The Polish Concerto was and is a pretty important work IMHO. Is there some reason to exclude it from a generalized list of Telemann's works via catalogue, if it has been performed (Musica Antiqua de Koln ... Antique Music of Cologne) and enjoyed by some numbers of persons? It should be included in the concertos for quartet. Does this article even include that category? A good reason for expansion. Because of the generality of listing his works, it would not be uncouth to include this work among the list. I might include it myself if I remember to in a day or so.

Also, the paragraph about Telemann's importance in intellectual property rights seems unparsable. Rather it could hold dual meanings. If you read the paragraph you can see that it could state that Telemann was working in favor of intellectual property rights or it could read that Telemann was working against intellectual property rights. The statement about his "performing" works in public meant for select audiences could be interpreted either way. Some who know for certain may see it in a bias and assume it's a qualified enough statement, however, others who have no idea of the background story may read the statement and still wonder where Telemann played on which side of the issue. I think it should be clarified. I think if we're going to expound on Telemann having an influence on intellectual property rights, then therefore we should know where Telemann stood on intellectual property rights. Because it's not just a simple matter of interpretation. Intellectual property rights have so far shaped everything from the components allowed inside of your technology to the things you're allowed to buy or sell in some countries to the laws being drafted about seemingly far-off things such as internet bandwidth allocation in some countries. If it's such an influential field of study that we need to mention it here while studying ostensibly nothing more than music, then let's expound. Let's at least determine where Telemann stood in regards to intellectual property, or if the issue cannot be settled furthermore, let us therefore settle on presenting all sides of the various arguments so that the reader is not left penniless with vague sentence fragments and more questions than answers. The Wikipedia should provide more answers to questions ratio, IMHO.

Gabriel Arthur Petrie (talk) 21:23, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Harmonischer Gottes-Dienst

Harmonischer Gottes-Diesnt is a collection of sacred cantatas for the year, it isn't chamber music. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.136.9.62 (talk) 17:37, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Georg Philipp Telemann/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)

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==Composers Project Assessment of Georg Philipp Telemann: 2009-01-31== This is an assessment of article Georg Philipp Telemann by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano. If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down. Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards (WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status. ===Origins/family background/studies=== Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described? ok ===Early career=== Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? few personal details. When did he marry? have children? ===Mature career=== Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? few personal details. When did he marry? have children? ===List(s) of works=== Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article. Selected works only. Complete list should be in separate article(s) due to extreme length. ===Critical appreciation=== Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)? Musical style discussion is weak; historical appreciation is decent. ===Illustrations and sound clips=== Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.) Good images; too much sound. ===References, sources and bibliography=== Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references? No references; a few inline citations. ===Structure and compliance with WP:MOS=== Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.) ok ===Things that may be necessary to pass a Good Article review=== Article requires more inline citations (WP:CITE) ===Summary=== This is a decent article, but it needs some work. The bio is short on personal details; we know he has a grandson, but no wife or children? The discussion of his music could be more expansive; there could be more contemporary critical and popular commentary. While I understand that creating an article for his long list of compositions is probably fairy tedious work, most major composers do have works listed here. I also think the media list is too long; a focused set of sample works should be included here. Article is B-class; plenty of room to improve. Magic♪piano 01:36, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Last edited at 01:36, 31 January 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 15:58, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

omissions

No mention of "Der getreuer Musikmeister", an amazing achievement by itself. And no mention of his two autobiographies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pygormus (talk • contribs) 17:39, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Actually, Der getreue Musikmeister is mentioned once, in the list of works (under "Chamber music"). Admittedly, it deserves more than this, but Telemann was a very busy fellow, and this article has many lacunae of this sort. The Essercizii musici are arguably as important as the Musikmeister, and yet this collection is not mentioned at all. The so-called "Paris" Quartets are not discussed in the text, not even in the context of Telemann's visit to Paris, nor is the quartet genre generally, for which Telemann was especially famous in his lifetime.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 17:55, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Similarly, there is no mention of any Telemann-themed museums, festivals, streets, schools, societies... any sign of his legacy in our time. I can personally affirm there is a "Telemann Izba" along with a café "U Telemanna" in Pszczyna (Pless), Poland, but that isn't probably the best-known place connected to Telemann. In fact, I hoped to find a hint about the connection here, with no results whatsoever. --Oop (talk) 10:14, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Reference to score for Der getreue Music-Meister http://ks.petruccimusiclibrary.org/files/imglnks/usimg/3/38/IMSLP330767-PMLP41848-Telemann_-_Der_Getreue_Music=Meister_-Monochrome-.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.212.225.42 (talk) 03:58, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

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