Talk:Crème caramel

Crème caramel?

The description and image of this dessert looks very much like French Crème caramel (or nearly identical dish considered a local speciality in Dubrovnik, Croatia and called 'rožata'). Are they indeed the same? I must note that what I was buying under the name of 'flan' in Paris was much firmer, dry and cut into thick slices. --bonzi 23:09, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

2023 comment for a 2006 topic I disagree. The word "flan" for a certain dessert is quite an association, while "creme caramel" pretty much feels like what ... like dulce de leche is! A caramellized thickened milk product! OkiPrinterUser (talk) 08:18, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes, flan and crème caramel are variants of the same thing. Just to confuse matters, there are other dishes called "flan" as well. I have tried to clarify all this in the article. --Macrakis 20:12, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

2023 comment for a 2006 topic I disagree. That British "pie" flan looks like it's conforming to the idea of English Full breakfast, thus lacking the Continental European features. OkiPrinterUser (talk) 08:25, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

I was thinking since flan is used for the open pie desert there should be a section on history of how Crème caramel became known as flan. Alas I have yet to find such imformation since this type of word-usage research is rarely written.Iamiyouareyou (talk) 22:05, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

2023 comment for a 2011 reply to a 2006 topic Try looking up French "Flan au caramel" phrase. And then, for the contrast, try looking up "Flan pâtissier" only to be greeted with that flan that conforms to the idea of pie - in Russia, the similar pie is known as zapekanka. OkiPrinterUser (talk) 08:25, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Suggestion

I am increasingly more annoyed when I read foreign words used in the English language. The german word "Ersatz" is just that, german. Whereas, it would make sense on a german-wiki, it is irrational to use it on the english-wiki. It means "substitute". Use substitute or pseudo. The only real sensible use of foreign words in english articles would be titles or names, not regular words. </ end rant >Pvt Mahoney 23:05, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

The English word 'ersatz', to my ear at least, has specific connotations which aren't captured by any of the alternatives I can think of--perhaps 'imitation'? Unlike the German word 'ersatz' from which it comes, it does not mean simply "replacement" or "substitute", and it is used specifically for food items. As the OED says, it is not only a substitute, but an inferior imitation. The American Heritage dictionary agrees: "An ersatz product is a transparently inferior imitation" (in the discussion of synonyms for 'artificial'). It seems like just the right word for margarine (ersatz butter), Bird's Custard, roasted chicory sold as coffee, etc. "Artificial" implies that the result is essentially the same, but it is produced in a non-natural way (e.g. vanillin vs. natural vanilla extract). "Substitute" doesn't imply that it is trying to imitate the original: you can substitute oil for lard in some recipes. "Imitation" is probably the closest, and is what is used legally in the US (e.g. "imitation mayonnaise" does not have the fat content etc. of "mayonnaise"), but it sounds bureaucratic (oops, a French-Greek word, how you say in English?) and unnatural to use "imitation" as an adjective. I suppose one could go for periphrasis (oops, I mean roundabout wording) and say that margarine is an imitation of butter instead of imitation butter. Are we having fun yet? --Macrakis 23:45, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

During WWII, the Germans used both Ersatz gasoline and Ersatz rubber, so it's not just used for foodstuffs. JDZeff (talk) 23:43, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm not much of a fan of margarine =P. I still dislike the use of foreign words on the english wiki for anything other than names or titles.

How do you define a "foreign word" exactly Mahoney? Will you be purging "hotel", "restaurant" and "sauna" from English Wiki? As Macrakis says, Once any word has become common place in English, especially when it has it's own, very specific, meaning, we can - for what it's worth - call it an "English" word. EasyTiger10 19:05, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Image

Ick... the image there is not very good. Flan ought to be smooth on the side/ Also the caramel ought to be running down the sides, not in a disc of sorts on top. Anybody have a better picture?

Luca 7:34 April 10, 2006 (EST)

The texture of the flan can vary greatly. I personally like the flan that's bubbly on the side. Whether the carmel is running down the side depends on whether the flan is served cold or served hot. But we could add second picture of a differently-textured served hot.--RLent 21:24, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Caramel Custard??

I've been eating creme caramel in the UK for years now and it's always called that - creme caramel. Who calls it "caramel custard"?

Agreed. I've just had some creme caramel from my local supermarket.. never seen it labelled, or talked about, as caramel custard.

In my experience (in the US), 'caramel custard' is a label for creme caramel in a more casual setting, like the kind that you get at a semi-fast-food chain, rather than the kind you get at a sit-down restaurant. </2¢> —Keakealani·?·!·@ 19:26, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I'll remove the UK qualifier, Tesco calls it creme caramel and that's good enough for me ;-) --h2g2bob (talk) 16:19, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

The nearest is Larousse Gastronomique which calls creme au caramel "caramel-flavoured custard",

User:Barliner^chat 18:51, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

2023 comment That's flan, or a flan cake, that doesn't try to be an element of a breakfast. — Preceding unsigned comment added by OkiPrinterUser (talk • contribs) 08:28, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

flan napolitano

You should also note that in many Latin American countries they eat a flan called 'flan napolitano' which is often made with cream cheese but not exclusively. Sometimes the flavorings are coffee, cajeta, or vanilla.

Flan

I have never known crème caramel to be referred to as flan. Is this a localised term? Flan, however, I know to mean a custard tart, as the article states, but in English. Mnealon (talk) 02:22, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

As the article says:

In the United States, the dish is now best-known in a Latin American context, so is often called flan; in Europe, it is generally known as crème caramel.

In French restaurants in the US, it would more likely be called crème caramel. --Macrakis (talk) 03:03, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

A flan in the UK is something entirely different, not even involving custard. I have never heard a creme caramel referred to as a flan in my life. I'm not saying it's wrong, but it shouldn't simply redirect here. Let's leave it at the disambiguation without a redirect. The world isn't the USA. Bienfuxia (talk) 19:02, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Whilst I've never heard creme caramel referred to as "flan" here in the UK, I have heard this in other countries as this article implies. But as you say, I think we either need to expand this article to include the UK meaning (a dessert consisting of fresh fruit arranged on a sponge cake base and covered in quick-setting jelly), or create a new article for that most important of foods. :) DWaterson (talk) 17:11, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Yup, "flan" is not a UK term for creme caramel, so the disambiguation shouldn't work like that. Before the 1980's the word "flan" meant (in the circles I moved in anyway) any kind of open pastry bake, which would include a quiche. When "Real men don't eat quiche" came out I had no idea what a "quiche" was, nor did most of my friends. "Oh its a *flan*" was our remark. US influence plus some from France (though less) seems to have given us the "quiche" word there. Much as zuccini seems to be gaining ground though slowly. 82.68.102.190 (talk) 23:38, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Instead of moaning, I've written up flan as an example of British cuisine, with a mention of this page. Totnesmartin (talk) 21:24, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

calories

Flan is not a 2000Kcal dessert, unless you have several servings of a standard "flan"; also, many American viewers consider "calories" to be equivalent to Kcal. I have changed this to "varies," rather than the "2000" previous described. I do believe this more accurately describes flan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.128.189.248 (talk) 04:59, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Questions

In the second paragraph of the article it says, "In Spanish-speaking countries and in North America, flan refers to cream;" What does it mean, cream? Should the word be "custard" instead?

And in the same paragraph, "In Europe and many Commonwealth countries, the dish is generally known as cream caramel." Is that really true? I thought it was creme caramel or the vernacular equivalent. Diderot08 (talk) 01:43, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

In the article on Flan, the etymology of the word 'flan' goes back to Old Castillian, whereas in the etymology in this article traces 'flan' to Old High German. Can this be reconciled? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.183.28.85 (talk) 18:00, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Correction

Good afternoon. Some of the information provided in this article is wrong and it's also missing substantial and enough information, especially when it comes to Caribbean countries. I am from Cuba. We have been making "flans" or what you call "Creme Caramel" for generations; when I read the article I was surprised by how much misinformation was provided about our Cuban traditional flan. I just wanted to add some points to the Cuban section of how it is made (We don't call it "creme caramel" as it is said, we have called it "flan" for decades). Whether our Cuban terminology is right or wrong, that is the way we call it in our Country. I wanted to add a few words as explanation under the Cuban section of this article explaining all the different variations that we are used to make under one base recipe (we add many things to that, we are used to make flans not only with caramel, but also cheese, and our especialty: guava paste (very traditional in Cuba). Also, if possible, I would like to add a link as reference for readers to have an idea of how it is done, since I can't write all the recipes on the main page. My purpose of adding the comment is for others to understand how we, Cubans make the variation of that traditional flan (that's how we call it, not "creme caramel"). The link is to sutain my statement, which is: http://thecubanrecipes.com/flan/

Thank you and have a great day (Cubafood (talk) 19:01, 6 September 2010 (UTC))

Thanks for your interest. It would be great to have more well-sourced information about flan in Cuba. In particular, it appears that Cuban flan is not necessarily crème caramel, but can be other kinds of custard. However, please note that recipes and links to recipes are generally not allowed by Wikipedia policy (see WP:NOT and WP:EL).

About the name, it is not a question of 'right' and 'wrong', just of convention. As an encyclopedia (not a dictionary), Wikipedia focuses on documenting the thing; the names for the thing are more or less incidental. On the English-language Wikipedia, we use the English terms for things (cf. WP:EN).

Thanks again for your interest, and welcome to Wikipedia. --Macrakis (talk) 19:24, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Oppose Macrakis had incredibly high standards. Besides, how else are people are supposed to back up their claims there are separate styles of making the dish? Blogs? "Primary sources". A book with ISBN on the topic? "Self-published" since that's Cuba, "where's peer-reviewed study?". A catalog, a restaurant menu? "Original research". OkiPrinterUser (talk) 16:08, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

France

"Elsewhere, including in France and Britain, flan usually means a custard tart" >> uh, what? I'm French and what we call a flan here clearly is what this article is about (crème caramel), I've never seen "flan" referring to any kind of tart... Just google "flan" on the French google images, as a proof... ;-)

Well, there's flan pâtissier, which is a custard tart. Info added to article, thanks. --Macrakis (talk) 19:42, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Recent edits

A few comments on why I reverted some recent changes to the article:

• Lowercase 'flan' was changed to 'Flan', arguing that 'flan' is a proper noun. Is there any evidence for that? Why is it not a common noun like other names of dishes, e.g. pizza, roast beef, moussaka, etc.? Are there any reliable sources for this claim?

• Vertical whitespace was added presumably to make the photos format better. Unfortunately, that method is not reliable -- as WP:PIC says, "Remember that text will flow and wrap differently for other users, based on their chosen browser, screen resolution, default font size, accessibility options, number of toolbars and sidebars (such as instant messaging panes) and more. Do not force page design just so that it looks pretty on your display. Hack only where absolutely necessary. Wherever possible, just use the simplest logical page flow."

• For the capitalization of section headings, please see the relevant section of the Manual of Style.

Thanks again for your interest and contributions. --Macrakis (talk) 21:32, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

In addition, Iamiyouareyou, while I appreciate your contributions, it would simply be inaccurate to claim that leche flan is a Filipino-language derivative of the Spanish flan de leche, as such a construction in the language would violate even the former's basic rules of grammar. Two Filipino nouns, should the first one end in either an n or a vowel, should be joined by the connector na, contracted as -g or -ng; thus, "plang gatas" or, if one so wishes, "plang letse." --Pare Mo (talk) 03:33, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Hoy 'Para mo', Tungkol sa Artikulo Crème caramel

Gamit ang Ingles ko ay nagbago 'Anglicization' sa 'Filipino pagkakaiba-iba ng mga hiram na Espanyol pangalan'. Ang dahilan dito ay dahil Anglicization ay tungkol sa Ingles-Wika pagkakaiba-iba ng hindi Espanyol-wika pagkakaiba-iba.

Using English I changed ' Anglicization ' to ' Filipino variation of borrowed Spanish name'. The reason is because Anglicization is about English-Language variations not Spanish-language variations. Iamiyouareyou (talk) 14:32, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Truth is even using Hispanicization in place of Anglicization in this context would not work. The reasoning I came to is because leche flan is not in anyway English or English derived not even in grammar. It's like in the modern English spelling of "french word Façade being spelled as Facade. Just as seen in English over time some borrowed words/names in Philippine Languages get incorrectly used. In closing sorry but Anglicization does not work.Iamiyouareyou (talk) 15:12, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

It would be unreasonable for either of us, however, to try and dictate the rules of how the Filipino language is used. For that, there are institutions such as the SWF of the University of the Philippines, and the KWF, the official national-language regulator.

Let's try to reach a compromise. Instead of you and I clinging to our respective positions, why don't we describe leche flan simply as the more-neutral local term? That way, we don't get into discussions we're not supposed to involve ourselves in, seeing that this is an encyclopedia. I went ahead to change the disputed paragraph. Tell me what you think. --Pare Mo (talk) 17:13, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

I hav always loved it! "Antied man bruh" 69.92.18.218 (talk) 04:45, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Article in Español

need help fixing my translation on Wikipedia eses:Crème_caramel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Iamiyouareyou (talk • contribs) 18:15, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Rename to Flan

There is suffuicant evidance on the Wikipeda French page that shows Crème Caramel is incorrect and that Flan is the Correct broad name. Iamiyouareyou (talk) 18:21, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

a) The French wikipedia Flan page does not describe Crème caramel in particular, but baked custards in general. It might make sense to *merge* Crème caramel into the custard article, but that is another matter. b) We have a reliable source (Davidson) for the name crème caramel in English. By the way, there are no reliable sources at all in the French flan article. If you still think the article should be renamed, please discuss here. --Macrakis (talk) 06:18, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Photo

I have removed from the flan article this photo - - as that is a Spanish flan not an English one. But I think this article already has enough photos. -- Beardo (talk) 04:21, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

• I don't know, looks like one of those cones I would refer to as "flan". I am not sure there is a need to generate separate articles for different regional variations of the same dish. OkiPrinterUser (talk) 15:34, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Move, Rename, and Merge

I propose we rename Crème caramel to "Flan," and merge with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flan the current flan article is in a rather poor state, and I'm pretty sure not the thing most of the english speaking world is looking for when they search for "flan" this was proposed in Rename to Flan but not really resolved. According to wikidata, most languages recognize this concept as some variation on the term flan https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q374381
Jared Zimmerman (talk) 19:16, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

A couple of issues here.

Are the British flan = custard tart and the Spanish flan = French crème caramel basically the same dish, or not? From what I've seen, they're actually very different. Both include custard (crème in French), but the custard tart has a crust, and is usually garnished with fruit, and usually does not have caramel sauce. Crème caramel has no crust, is usually not garnished with fruit, and always has caramel sauce. Since they are different, even if the name "flan" is used for both in some places, WP policy says there should be two articles, even if they have to be called, say, flan (tart) and flan (custard) or whatever. That is, we need to find different titles for the two articles. Flan and crème caramel seems like good candidates.

As I understand it, "flan" is mostly used to mean crème caramel in North America, and there mostly in the context of Spanish and Mexican cuisine. What makes you think that "the thing most of the english speaking world is looking for when they search for "flan" " is crème caramel? --Macrakis (talk) 00:10, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

2023 opinion: I actually support the idea of merging the article on "the boring kind of flan" and the article on "the creamy kind of flan, that's mais non, mais non, c'est une Crème caramel de Valoon" together. OkiPrinterUser (talk) 15:31, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Japanese purin?

Although the article mentions a variant made with an instant powder and agar agar, many Japanese recipes seem to be more comparable Panna Cotta, using "bloomed" gelatin with a warm, liquid dairy base and no eggs (making it a viable dessert for those with egg allergies or intolerances). A number of instant brands also appear to be egg-free; so, the Japanese concept might be inspired by creme caramel, but the actual products straddle between the traditional recipe and Panna Cotta.

75.27.30.212 (talk) 16:12, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

• Should we bring up the many Japanese recipes, we'll end up making a chapter on a character named Flandre Scarlet from a certain Japanese videogame as well as the cultural impact of the VGM theme of the character. OkiPrinterUser (talk) 15:22, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Place of origin is only partly accurate

Nobody in Spain or Mexico calls that creme caramel. There's already a separate article for flan. Plus nobody eats "Flan" in italy & Germany or France. Maybe in a Spanish restaurant there but it's not a national dessert. Flan has always been associated with Spain or Hispanic culture from Mexico to Chile to even the Philippines & Guam. Although the main subheading for French dessert is correct, the lumping of two different dessert names into one is incorrect & misleading. And why are some people insisting they should rename the whole dessert under the paintbrush umbrella term like "flan"? 76.167.193.57 (talk) 19:36, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

This is the English-language Wikipedia, so what the dish is called in Spain or Mexico is not at issue.

The word "flan" in English has two distinct meanings. In the UK and other places, it is something like quiche, that is, a pastry shell with a savory custard filling. The US generally follows the Spanish-language usage, since flan is known on menus of Mexican restaurants.

Since they are two different dishes, they have two articles. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a dictionary, we go by what things are rather than by their names. This has been discussed multiple times on the Talk pages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Macrakis (talk • contribs) 00:19, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

You know, same for me! Basic "flan" article: describes these cute cones "with sweet or savory filling", but depicts some sad bluish photo of a thick sliced omeletto. This article: depicts cute flans as seen on YouTube, but uses some obscure name for it (just like Russian "tyanuchki" are named kinuski due to Finnish influence). Guess someone have messed up. OkiPrinterUser (talk) 15:19, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

More misinformation about flan

Someone is claiming there's a dessert dish in Latin America called "Flan Napolitano". Funny, I've visited Naples many times & my grandfather is from there & that dish is unheard of there. I never heard of it until this talk page. Now they can name whatever dish they want there however people need to be well informed about things. There's a roadside place In New Jersey where they sell a sandwich called the "Cantonese cheesesteak". Does that mean people are assuming that Cheesesteaks were invented in China? Of course not. So why should anyone assume that Flan hails from Naples when there's no debate that it's from Spain? 76.167.193.57 (talk) 19:47, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

There is clearly a dish in Mexico called flan napolitano. A Google search for flan napolitano site:mx finds thousands of Mexican web sites mentioning it. That of course does not mean that it actually comes from Naples, or that it is known in Naples, and it certainly doesn't mean that flan in general comes from Naples. And the article doesn't make either of those claims. It just claims that there is a dish with that name in Mexico. --˜˜˜˜

You know, makes sense for a Mexican to try and use such a fancy word as "Napolitan". I can imagine such a trick happening in XXI century. In fact, some dishes I know bear implications of foreign origin:

• Pavlova: NZ/Australia (in debate) dish with Russian ballet dancerette's surname used as the name for the dish.

• Olivier salad: the other way round, it originated in Russia, but it uses the surname of the maker, Olivier.

• (more jokingly) Mars chocolate bars: turns out, Forrest Mars Sr. created "Mars" chocolate bars after he introduced the Milky Way ones... OkiPrinterUser (talk) 15:54, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

There's a weird article titled as "Flan cake"

Attention Wikipedia's editors!

While people here were arguing whether crème caramel is a flan or not, some Filipino editors made an article named "Flan cake" and claimed it's originating in Filipines. Please fix this. OkiPrinterUser (talk) 12:29, 6 June 2023 (UTC)